[Red King]

I did indeed mean Tool, that was an error on my part, my fingers can never keep up with my brain. But anyway, it would of made more sense to me if that was the way Seguleh challenged one another. And I remember that the first Seguleh was from the initate group, and that there was A Lot of them. Enough to make a proper 'Punative Army' as Lady envy states as she is talking to another Diety about the difficulties in keeping the three under her control. And after thinking about the fights between Tool and the Seguleh, I would say you are right about the ability to challenge whatever rank, but, i can't agree since Tool wasn't ranked initally and he didn't challenge the first two and the duel between Mok and Tool was a mutual fight that they both needed to happen. I also kind of got the impression that a higher rank could challenge anyone below them, but when it came to someone higher then the inital challenger, it was a whole different story and you had to go one step at a time.

To me, it seems like one of the reasons why Rake ended up only being the 7th instead of higher up since he was so fatigued with the amount of battles he had to go through. It just seems like one of the more plausible reasons. But, I could very well be wrong, but, i'll wait until the verdict is reach on this one.

- Ultor

[Edrigan]

You guys need to keep in mind something else:::::


a) Seguleh consider a challenge something that is not initiated verbally but more like physicaly body language ( Look them in the eys, keep your body straight, in a general defying manner). When they see this 'physical' challenge they have but to answer it.


b ) Tool doesn't face Mok sooner because Lady Envy prevents that by witnessing what he did to Therule.If she didn't step up and keep him 'asleep' then Mok and Tool would fight , simply because Tool is the First Sword and aknowledges none as equal to him. His posture and behavior scream of it and Mok would not leave it unanswered.

c) Senu and Thurule have ranks, 11th and 9th respectively.(messed up numbers, sorry)

d) We can understand a part of the Seguleh society in witnessing the way the challenges go down. When Tool and Toc meet the three Seguleh for the first time, Toc 'submits' unknowingly, but EVEN if Mok is the unchallenged ruler and leader of the punitive army, he doesn't step up to fight Tool. Neither does Thurule. Senu has to go first, and once he is defeated, that task is left up to him. Mok will only face Tool when both have been defeated.
Much in the same way Seguleh society might be build. Low ranks can't go around all bosy and nosy, since ANY small sign of 'defiance' is considered a challenge, and will probably be dealt immediately in a way.Also high ranked challenges (probably 10th and above) must have a pretty high chance of being 'to the death' since if this wasn't the case, the First wouldn't be as much concerned of the 3rd as he is, according to the books.
It is in this manner Rake is treated in their island. Of course by the time he has fought a couple, most experienced Seguleh should be aware that his capabilities are a lot better than simply beating up lower ranks, yet their 'protocol' demands that he goes up the ladder like everyone else before he starts having shots at the single digit ranked Seguleh.
Again in the same manner we hear how Seguleh treat the Pannion priests that arrive in their island - as fodder to the lowest ranked Seguleh, since they are the first who answer the challenges.
Another hint on how important rank is, we get by the way Senu and Thurule treat Toc, AFTER Tool has beaten them in personal duels (much less with the flat of his sword so he doesn't injure them severely). While they dont address Toc personaly, they do answer questions every time Tool asks them to, which is a sign of recognizing him as a superior swordman and showing submission, but they do treat Toc probably with more respect as well, even addressing him with the name 'Stonearrow' while giving the name 'Stoneblade' to Tool.This has the reason that when Toc initially showed submission to the Seguleh when they first encountered, he however doesnt show any signs of submission to Tool afterwards.They see Tool and Toc treating each other more like equals and while they don't understand why that is, they accept the fact. They actually respect Tools wishes, upto a point when they believe that Tocs words come out as insulting, and they virtualy stand up unseathing their swords and walking towards him because they have the need to 'answer' the 'insult' of Tocs words to Tool, because Tool is at this point a higher ranked warrior than they are. I think we are safe to assume that if Tool hadn't stopped them at that point, they would have killed Toc easily (omg, those bastards! )

Spoiler

Seguleh speaking, has anyone been able to find out what was the rank of the female Seguleh that Karsa broke both arms while sparing , at the courtyard of the Letherii Palace?

This post has been edited by Edrigan: 13 April 2010 - 02:30 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

about c) - we are actually never told senu and thurule's ranks. they just have masks "crowded with symbols" iirc. but by all means provide a quote if you've got one.

[Edrigan]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 13 April 2010 - 02:05 AM, said:

about c) - we are actually never told senu and thurule's ranks. they just have masks "crowded with symbols" iirc. but by all means provide a quote if you've got one.

There is a quote right in this thread about Senu:::::

pg.129 American Paperback edition
"How many years since your birth, Senu?" The T'lan Imass asked.
"Fourteen, Master Stoneblade. I am Eleventh Level Initiate.



So Senu's rank is 11th among the Initiates.
I dont have the books with me, my wife has them atn, but I will try to find a quote for Thurules rank.

But I do remember this thing out of the book::::

-Toc claims it took Tool only 3 swings to drop the kid down. Tool calmly explains that the 'kid' parried his first sword strikes with his swords half-sheathed, if he was given the chance to unsheath them, the duel would have been longed for sure.Tocs jaw drops.
-Thurules mask has less marks than Senu so he is clearly ranked higher than Senu. Notice that I didnt state with certainity that there are different names as far as ranks go ( ie initiate, master, grand master ). There is a HINT though I believe. Both Seguleh address Tool as 'Master' which might be some way of understanding that he is perhaps of a swordmanship level that exceeds the Initiate one.
-Senu and Thurule react in pretty much the same destructive way when they face the KCCM, with Mok in the middile, which means that while Thurule is clearly ranked higher, Senu isnt too far behind in rank than him.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

He said 11th and 13th because they are eleventh and thirteenth level initiates I believe. They haven't yet reached an individual rank.

Actually I know that Senu is an 11th level initiate. I have a recollection of Thrurule being 13th level, but I can't find a quote on it.

Edit: Got distracted by the tv midpost.

@Edrigan's new post. Senu is NOT ranked 11th overall. It is clear in his description to Tool that this is not an individual rank, but rather a level. The first level initiates are the blackmasks that were dispatched to kill the Pannion priests that came to their island.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 13 April 2010 - 02:47 AM

[Edrigan]

 WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 13 April 2010 - 02:42 AM, said:

He said 11th and 13th because they are eleventh and thirteenth level initiates I believe. They haven't yet reached an individual rank.

Actually I know that Senu is an 11th level initiate. I have a recollection of Thrurule being 13th level, but I can't find a quote on it.

Edit: Got distracted by the tv midpost.

@Edrigan's new post. Senu is NOT ranked 11th overall. It is clear in his description to Tool that this is not an individual rank, but rather a level. The first level initiates are the blackmasks that were dispatched to kill the Pannion priests that came to their island.

I did not say he is ranked 11th overall. I said he is 11th rank Initiate. That might very well be 598th among the entire Seguleh warriors or 8847th or 4587th or 4597th

What I mean is Senu says something like "I'm ranked 11th among the Sergeants"- Even if that still remains unclear where that places him overall in the entire Seguleh population, it is still a rank in itself.

Surprisingly, http://encyclopediam...rks.com/Seguleh has Senu ranked 11th as well

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Edrigan, on 13 April 2010 - 03:21 AM, said:

I did not say he is ranked 11th overall. I said he is 11th rank Initiate. That might very well be 598th among the entire Seguleh warriors or 8847th or 4587th or 4597th

What I mean is Senu says something like "I'm ranked 11th among the Sergeants"- Even if that still remains unclear where that places him overall in the entire Seguleh population, it is still a rank in itself.

Surprisingly, http://encyclopediam...rks.com/Seguleh has Senu ranked 11th as well

I would take it more like "I'm ranked sergeant among the Seguleh." 11th level initiate sounds like a level that many Seguleh are and hafta graduate from. like saying "I'm in 11th grade". There are probably a number of those levels, starting at one and going to whatever, and then a number of individually ranked Seguleh.


Edit: p.s. You did say he was ranked 11th.

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 13 April 2010 - 03:38 AM

[Edrigan]

Quote

You did say he was ranked 11th.

Are you arguing schematics, because I believe we're not saying something different here.
I don't think that anyone would disagree that we are being given Senus Rank.His rank is 'Eleventh Level Initiate'. What we are not being given is the exact structure of Seguleh ranks, both internally, and also between members of the same individual level, so we can't really make any comparisons apart from the fact that the less scars a Seguleh warriors mask has, the bigger the distance you need to put between you and him/her in order to stay alive.
From my military years, and understanding of rankings, Seguleh ranks arent in any way very different than modern ranks or even Malazan ranks.While Fiddler didn't actually graduate from a Malazan Officer Academy school, the other sergeants simply give him seniority when its time to make decisions, recognizing his experience, and respecting his reputation as a previous member of the Bridgeburners.
In a similar fascion, todays officers that graduate from a Military Academy and go on, even if they do graduate with the same rank, they have 'internal ranks' as well (I only have first hand experience with the military ranks in Greece, so if my assumptions are wrong about the US military ranks, I apologise beforehand).If two officers that graduated the Military Academy as Second Lieutenants find themselves in a situation that decisions need to be made, there is a protocol that defines 'internal ranking' between two members of the same rank, based on their performance and grades inside the Academy.That protocol will be following them in their entire military career.There is also another protocol that defines seniority between equal ranked officers of a different force (ie Air, Naval, Marines etc etc) but since Seguleh seem to be strictly foot soldiers, it kinda makes it easier.


After having said that, we do have some tools in our disposal to understand something about Seguleh ranks (again some of them might seem like assumptions, but every time there's a discussion taking place, we do need a common ground in order to make any conclusions).I will try to portrait my thoughts on the subject, and every time I make an assumption I will put it into {} for clarification.


1) 'Senu's enamelled face-covering was crowded with dark-stained patterns, such decoration diminished successively in the other two examples. One was only slightly less marked than Senu's, but the third mask bore naught but twin slashes, one on each gleaming white cheek. The eyes that stared out from the slits of this mask were like chips of obsidian'


From that MoI quote, we get some clues.Senus mask has more marking than Thurules and Moks mask is gleaming white apart from twin scars.So Mok outranks Thurule and Thurule outranks Senu.


2) RotCG quote

Spoiler

'I tried to get a good look at Oru's mask. If I'm right, he's ranked among the top twenty.'

.

From this one, we understand that people outside Seguleh organizations have found a way to identify the top Seguleh ranks.That is while someone with some knowledge of the Seguleh organization might not know what a 12th or 15th level Initiate mask look like, or if he sees a 7th level Initiate he might not recognise him as such, its clear that the top 20 Agatii can be acknowledged by the number of scars they bear on their white masks.


3) While Tool doesn't initially know Senus rank {and my opinion is that he asked it so he could measure Senus swordmanship and skills so he can compare it with Thurules and eventually Moks} he does recognise Moks rank and addresses him as "3rd among the Seguleh" when they finally meet above Tocs body in Pannion Palace (I think he says that, I don't have the books with me to verify that). That is another indication that Seguleh Top 20 ranks are probably reknown outside Seguleh island. Probably because these are the Seguleh warriors who roam outside the Island on various quests or missions, and that is another way for Higher ranked Seguleh to get rid of the competition (By sending them to various missions outside the island with hopes that they will not make it)

4) Rake fought Seguleh non stop for 2 bells in the Island. Now I don't know how much time that really is, I was always of the opinion that a bell equals an hour in todays time scale.Perhaps someone who isn't as bored as me, can sit down and try to come up with a number of opponents that Rake could have defeated before he actually had to withdraw.We'll have to take into consideration that Anomander didn't use his Warren, and relied only on his swordmanship, and we'll have to factor in variances of time it took the Seguleh to actually bring words to the Top Ranked in the Island that there is a stranger among their mist that is defeating them one by one, so they might call someone from the Top 10 from where ever they might be to check things out- perhaps a theorycrafted number can give us a better accurate as to how many opponents Rake defeated starting from Blackmasks all the way to the 7th. {Again we might have to accept that even if Seguleh protocol demands that you work your way up a ladder facing each and every one that is ahead of you, we might get stuck at a point since we don't know the number of warriors each Initiate level has}


So from all these we can say that:

-Seguleh Top 20 ranks are identified by the number of scars on a white mask.These top 20 ranks are individual and have one and only member.In order to climb the ladder you have to go through the one higher than you {I personally don't believe you can challenge someone that is 2 or more ranks higher than you.Given the way Senu and Thurule react towards Toc when they believe he has insulted Tool, when they could have clearly keep their distance and expect him to answer the challenge in a Seguleh fachion, it leads me to believe that if you want to climb higher in their ranks you have to defeat each and everyone standing higher than you insted of 'skipping' ranks.If I am ranked 11th among the Agatti for example and I challenge someone who is ranked 6th among the Agatii, I do not believe that Rank 10 , 9 , 8 and 7 will leave that unanswered since my actions say that I do not consider them noteworthy or remotely good opponents at this point, and want to take a shot at No 6 which is the rank that I believe befits me- if I did something like that, I think that No 10,9,8, and 7 will all be outside my house demanding explanations for this insult}
-Seguleh ranked lower than the Top 20 have a pattern on their masks that states their rank in Seguleh hierarchy and you can identify it if you have knowledge of their Hierarchy. {Again by the way Senus mask is portraited, I personally believe that there is a symbol or pattern that represents the 'Initiate' level, and the rest of the marks on it represent the 'Eleventh Level' ranking.Knowledgable characters that encounter such Seguleh might not initially understand their rank because they are only partially familiar with the masks of the Top 20.If we assume that there is no such pattern, I can't understand how is it possible for someone who is ranked 155th Agatii for example to fill a mask with 155 slaces.So there has to be some symbol or one of the patterns on Senus mask has to represent that}


I hope this makes it a bit more clear as to how I personally understand the way Seguleh are ranked. I'm sorry if anyone reading it finds himself/herself cunfused more than before

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

2 points.

Point 1: You did not respond to my last post at all, you just went off on a tangent about Seguleh ranking that didn't address Senu's specific rank (which is what we were discussing) at all.

Point 2: I believe that Seguleh can challenge people more than one spot higher than them. If they 12th saw the 6th fight and thought they looked weak (I mean in terms of skill, not in terms of they just fought and possibly have injuries now) they would challenge them immediately. Rake fought 20 people when he visited the island. The last was either ranked 7th or 8th. Do you think this meant that the first person to challenge him was ranked 27th, and then they all lined up to fight him in turn? Or is it more likely that by the end the last Seguleh he faced realized that he was of such a skill he immediately wanted to challenge him. RotCG spoiler

Spoiler

More evidence of this is in RotCG after Iron Bars defeats the chick. Oru immediately wants to fight him even though he is the highest ranked Seguleh on the ship, and Iron Bars is now the lowest.

[Edrigan]

Quote

You did not respond to my last post at all, you just went off on a tangent about Seguleh ranking that didn't address Senu's specific rank (which is what we were discussing) at all.

I addressed Senus specific rank, and I also stated the reasons behind to why I think thats Senus rank. The point of the thread was 'Seguleh Ranking' in general and I wanted to add to that, instead of going down another road and just talking about a specific part of it.I still dont understand what more were you expecting me to say about that, in general. If the situation seems like "Half full glass" vs "Half empty glass" there's really no point in stretching it over and over.

As far as the number of opponents Rake faces in Seguleh Island, I do not recall anywhere in the books being stated.I do not know how you came up with the number '20'. I only remember reading how long he faught them.Perhaps I am wrong on this, and since I dont have the books within my reach at the moment I will have to wait to find that out. If you have a quote from that from the books by all means post it up, will save me time going through it trying to find it out (granted it exists in the first place).

As far as the Seguleh challenges, there is still room for debate in it.Perhaps it all comes down to personal prefferences as things are still unclear on their behaviour and cultural structure. Its just another one of this things SE needs to include in an Errata or a Suplement, after his 10thlogy is done, that will shed some lights into the ways he has been visualising the world he has been discribing thus far.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think the number comes from lady envy telling toc that rake faced 'a score' of seguleh. of course 'a score' is usually a give or take amount, so it's around 20.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Edrigan, on 13 April 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

Quote

You did not respond to my last post at all, you just went off on a tangent about Seguleh ranking that didn't address Senu's specific rank (which is what we were discussing) at all.

I addressed Senus specific rank, and I also stated the reasons behind to why I think thats Senus rank. The point of the thread was 'Seguleh Ranking' in general and I wanted to add to that, instead of going down another road and just talking about a specific part of it.I still dont understand what more were you expecting me to say about that, in general. If the situation seems like "Half full glass" vs "Half empty glass" there's really no point in stretching it over and over.

I guess I was talking about how you seem to think 11th Level Initiate seems to mean he is ranked 11th best among all the people of the Initiate class, and I was trying to explain how I believe that 11th Level Initiate is a ranking in and of itself. Like the examples I gave about being a sergeant in the army, or in the 11th grade in school. There are probably slight fluctuations in the skill level of all the members of that rank, but once you have reached a certain skill you probably move on up to 12th Level Initiate. I backed this up by stating that the lowest rank were the First Level Initiates, or 'Blackmasks'.

Quote

As far as the number of opponents Rake faces in Seguleh Island, I do not recall anywhere in the books being stated.I do not know how you came up with the number '20'. I only remember reading how long he faught them.Perhaps I am wrong on this, and since I dont have the books within my reach at the moment I will have to wait to find that out. If you have a quote from that from the books by all means post it up, will save me time going through it trying to find it out (granted it exists in the first place).

MoI page 131: Lady Envy

Quote

'Oh yes. This is an extraordinary duel - I have never...no, it's more complicated. An old memory, dredged free when you first identified these as Seguleh. Anomander Rake once crossed blades with a score of Seguleh, one after the other. He'd paid an unannounced visit to the island - knowing nothing of the inhabitants. Taking human form and fashioning a mas for himself, he elected to walk down the city's main thoroughfare. Being naturally arrogant, he showed no deference to any who crossed his path...Two bells. That was the full duration of Rake's visit to the island and its people. He described the ferocity of that short time, and his dismay and exhaustion, which led him to withdraw into his warren, if only to slow the hammering of his heart.'

Edit: typo

This post has been edited by WhiskeyJackDaniels: 13 April 2010 - 09:56 PM

[Edrigan]

Quote

i think the number comes from lady envy telling toc that rake faced 'a score' of seguleh. of course 'a score' is usually a give or take amount, so it's around 20.

I always thought that when Lady Envy uses the word 'score' she does so in order to relate something like 'a nonintresting or not-remembering-right-now number of people' way instead of actually meaning 'twenty people'. There are times though that I've caught myself reading through his work and thinking that the words chosen represent much stronger feelings than the ones the character is experiencing at this moment, yet it still suits it as a 'writers licence' to use words beyond their strict meanings, much like a poet does.
Perhaps SE uses it like that here or he does mean indeed '20' people.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Since when has a score not meant exactly 20? It's not like saying 'several', it's just a different way of saying 20.

[Sinisdar Toste]

yes, but its not usually an exact estimate. someone says a score and it means they saw between 18 and 22 things. people don't take the time to count and make sure that the things they're referencing number exactly 20 before they use the word score.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 14 April 2010 - 08:41 AM, said:

yes, but its not usually an exact estimate. someone says a score and it means they saw between 18 and 22 things. people don't take the time to count and make sure that the things they're referencing number exactly 20 before they use the word score.

Well, maybe. I've only heard it used as an exact number, but it doesn't effect the discussion in this thread whether or not its exact or a lil off.

[Sinisdar Toste]

indeed, either way i agree with your assessment of the ranks and system of challenge.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Ah, ok good. I always appreciate a good validating comment.

[Red King]

 WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 13 April 2010 - 08:22 PM, said:

2 points.

RotCG spoiler

Spoiler

More evidence of this is in RotCG after Iron Bars defeats the chick. Oru immediately wants to fight him even though he is the highest ranked Seguleh on the ship, and Iron Bars is now the lowest.

Spoiler

Not sure if this is, but playing on he safe side. This actually shows a point I had made much earlier. It was that fact that Iron Bars was the lowest ranked one on the ship, and then Oru sought to challenge him since he was the highest ranked one. It makes sense that someone of much higher rank can challenge someone of lower rank if they view them as a worthy challenge. So, it still seems that you must be of higher rank to challenge another if they present the proper posture and body language that shows they are worthy and someone who his higher up, like a 7th rank, can challenge 11th level initiate if the initiate shows that he is superior and the 7th or whatever rank feels they need to challenge them.

- Ultor

This post has been edited by First Sword Ultor: 14 April 2010 - 08:49 PM

[Edrigan]

Weren't Senu, Thurule and Mok brothers, or my memory fails me?