[Benji]

I like the Dying God thread. Not for any reasons based on story, but I liked seeing what Nimander and co can do. The bits between Itkovian and Seerdomin were worth skipping though.

[Abyss]

 foolio, on Dec 17 2008, 12:29 PM, said:

so what do you suppose happened with Kallor in the temple?

I think he walked in, swatted aside the kaelykkers who got in his way, took a god hard look at the DG puppet in his usual curiously insightful way (remember back in MoI when he saw QB's multiple souls?) and, deciding it wasn't worth his bother, he left. I can see him realizing it was a part of Bellurdan, Nightchill's former lover, and deciding it wasn't worth killing.

 Salt-Man Z, on Dec 17 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

I enjoyed it. The whole thing was pretty creepy, and the scarecrows in particular reminded me of the part in Simmons' Ilium/Olympos where they come across the valley full of crucified (?) Calibans.

I thought the scarecrow thing was genius SE work.

 Salt-Man Z, on Dec 17 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

The whole Bellurdan angle made no sense, though, and it seemed far too similar to the Crippled God without actually being him. Enjoyable nonetheless.

The parallels were referred to in the book and not without reason.

 Aptorian, on Dec 17 2008, 04:12 PM, said:

What I liked -

The story arc saved Nimander for me. I absolutly hated the guy in RG, such a whinning ass. He wasn't so much better in TTH but the emo was backed up by being a badass swordfighter and actually showing leaderskills.

The DG was hella creepy. All that scarecrow and drinking kelyk business worked well for me. If the stuff had given the worshippers power as it killed them, I think it would have been even cooler.

The whole possession of Clip and battle at bastion was sweet. I wish he had killed a few more of them andii, but it still worked for me.

Kallor was ten kinds of awesome in that storyline, I wish we'd seen him kill just a few dozen DG followers just for fun. I absolutly love the fact that he walked in to the tempel and then just left because he didn't care.

What I missed -

I thought Erikson should have made a tigh in between the CG and the Dying God. I did not like the idea of just another random threat when we're getting so close to the end.

I don't know why Erikson chose Belurdan for the DG soul. Why not have used Hairlock instead, it would have made so much more sense. I think what really made me confused was the fact that the DG was using puppets... like hairlock.

I fucking hated the redeemer aspect of the story. I did not care about the redeemer and I did not care about the DG eating the guy. I wish Silannah had just removed that human stain.

I tend to agree with Apt that it seemed sort of odd to intro the DG as this major threat only at this stage in the books and while the CG is lurking just offside, but that nitp[ick aside i really liked this arc.

I thought Nimander and co were great characters, i thought their byplay with Kallor and Gothos were great to read, and i really enjoyed how SE slowly changed our perception of Nimander and co from whiny Andii adolescents to serious warriors who just don't like to fight.

The Bellurdan-Hairlock-hitchhiking god-machine-Abyss thing was... confusing. I mean, okay, i can sort of wrap my head around it... machine assisted traveller from another dimension accidentally bumps into god and drags god into Malazan world, crashes, god dumped into Abyss, finds chunk of Bellurdan, absorbs, sees Hairlock wandering around, follows, ends up back in the world and starts the kaelyk plot, eventually forms plan to seize Black Coral because the Andii despair draws him and reflects his own despair.

But i think i burnt out somethinkymeatz figuring all that out.

The Redeemer... i had some trouble reconciling this character with Itkovian but the point, that SE has made before and i enjoy how he works with it, is that the worshippers influence the god more than the reverse, so the Redeemer was a complex element and in the end i enjoyed it.

 Briar King, on Dec 17 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

...
Aranatha being MD, zoom.....went over my head, I still don't understand it.

Mommy D was staying out of things. Aranatha was (mostly) brain dead and MD took the opportunity to use her body as a meat puppet to mostly watch and occassionally act where Aranatha's submerged personality sort of forced her to, but MD could not bring her whole power into the world until Anomander moved the gate from Dragnipur to Black Coral.

All said and done, there wasn't an arc in this book that i didn't enjoy to some extent.


- Abyss, ...the brainz, they hurtz us....

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I was irritated with the DG storyline at times. I mean, all the bad stuff was happening right outside the fucking door of Black Coral and they're left alone. Nothing that happened would have happened if Rake had come out swinging that lovely sword of his but still. I mean, a couple of ex-Domin thungs get delusions of grandeur and look what happens.

[Abyss]

 Ain't_It_Just_, on Feb 20 2009, 05:15 AM, said:

... all the bad stuff was happening right outside the fucking door of Black Coral and they're left alone. Nothing that happened would have happened if Rake had come out swinging that lovely sword of his but still.

Except that large chunks of the book revolve around why Rake was otherwise occupied, which was why the DG had an opportunity and why Endest Silar had to do what he did.

Fundamentally, the DG arc boils down to Rake taking on a task of staggering importance to save his city, his warren, his Mother/God, and his people, and a fairly nasty dislocated alien god trying to take advantage of Rake's distraction/vulnerability to seize the city and the Andii AND eat the Redeemer, a new and vulnerable god located at the same place. Had the DG succeeded, he would have had a HUGE power-up.

Quote

I mean, a couple of ex-Domin thungs get delusions of grandeur and look what happens.

...Seerdomin, at least imnsho one of the more interesting characters in the book, steps up and kills their asses. Plus we get Spindle and Monkrat. I have no complaints about those developments.


- Abyss, opportunista.

[tsr]

[EDIT: In fact I read Dying as Chained since well, I just read in the connection assuming one. So Disregard the rest of my post....I LIKED the Arc for reasons I've revealed below... read into it.]

Just responding to the first post.

I'm not sure we read the same book. To be frank, I've actually started reading each book through the Chained God filter and Shadowthrone Filter, for example....just to see if it makes sense. They are foils aren't they?

The first 4 books in, I marveled and was even perplexed that he would write about new characters like Karsa Orlong in House of Chains and completely new continents like Lether in Midnight Tides and then manage to wrap that into the entire story line, so you must not have liked that book since it's essentially ALL about that plot line.

Isn't it the major plot line for all the books?

I think you miss the thematic elements of humanity in struggle and how Erikson brings that to life on the page. For example Again, since I'm rereading it, Midnight Tides is about a number of people namely; Trull Sengar and Tehol Bedict who both deal with the context of raw power and the cost of that power, in search of greater meaning to their lives. One becomes outcast more or less of his own choice, and the other being the foil to Trull in the sense that he knows the value and meaning of his life, and can actually do something about it, while at the same time, seems to evoke no care about his own well being in the physical sense. But is essentially as caring as person as Trull Sengar. And both of them do this in Contrast to Rhulad's ironic greed foiled with Tehol, and Trull's love contrasted with Rhulad's lusting. Its superbly done. Just as is Cutter/Crokus for example in Toll the Hounds & Scillara.

And in response to the other posts, just because Erikson doesn't tell you something doesn't mean you can't read between the lines and infer things like ...couldn't the Dying God be the Herald in the Deck of Dragons, or does he go somewhere else? etc. For example Iskaral Pust has been referenced as the Magi, but he's not listed in the back of the book as the Magi in the Deck of Dragons. How many others has he alluded to but not told us about outright? I bet there is a lot more there than he's let onto.

This post has been edited by tsr: 20 February 2009 - 09:20 PM

[Mavnak]

i'd just like to say that when i first read it i thought that the DG was the same as the CG just called something different, maybe because of some sort of plot by the CG.

on the whole i'd have to say i didn't like it.

[Skywalker]

I ABSOLUTELY HATED and was confused by the Dying God arc on my first readthrough of TtH. Although, I have to say I did get goose pimples when they figured out the DG was Bellurdan...

And then...

On my re-read of TtH I absolutely loved the comparitive thing SE had going on between the three religions - the Andii and Mother Dark, The Redeemer and his priestess/ Seerdomin, and the DG and his kaelyk-ers... also, on some level Anomander Rake and the Andii, especially Spinnock Durav and (insert confusing Andii name here).

I think TtH serves largely to foreshadow what is going to happen with the Crippled God, who suffers from the deficiencies of all the three (or four if you include Rake) gods talked about in TtH:

He is hurt and angry and petulant in a childlike way (like the DG)
He seems to be unable to help himself and does need a lot of help (like the DG/ Redeemer)
His "flock" have largely let him down, or vice versa (kind of like MD... ok its a stretch)
and he needs to learn the value to mercy, and forgiveness and kindness toward his believers (like MD)

So my question is this... who is going to be the CG's Seerdomin/ Rake/ Nimander/ Spinnock et al? Who shall deliver the deliverer?

[Grimjust Bearegular]

I quite enjoyed it, althought it didn't seem to go anywhere or have any significance, until the end of course.

[Darkwatch]

In true lazy tradition I haven't read all the previous posts.

I'll just state my opinion of the this particular arc.

First off:
I hate Nimander, and even by the end of the story I still hated him, a lot. The only moment where I had a slight attitude change was at the end when possesed Clip attacks Endest and he charges to the defense, acting like a decisive leader for once (infact the only moment he shows actual leadership). Though Of course he ends up short and the whole thing fell flat.
Otherwise all his "command" moments are just lacking command. You're told he's good at commanding because the others say so, but they're simpering wimps so he gives off no aura of leadership.
They dragged most of the arc down. I found myself annoyed whenever they appeared again.

Second:
I adored the whole dying god thing. While not as well explained (due to it being compressed) as I would have liked. The concept, the evolution, the kelyk was all brilliant to me. The atmosphere I had when reading those sections of pure twisted amorality were top notch.

Third:
Kallor outright saves the arc by acting as a sort of boost during the Nimander and co. parts. I was dismayed when he left.

Fourth:
While I respect Endest Silan, he simply seemed like an older more jaded Nimander, his arc was good, but not that good.
The priestess was by far my favourite Andii (except for Rake, who basicly just won the whole thing at the end in Dragnipur) simply because not ALL her thoughts were bogged down.
Spinnock Durav has my undying contempt, I seriously wish Kallor had killed him (probably would have to, had he seen his behaviour over the last few weeks).

Fifth:
Salind was an interesting character, though I felt she was a bit underdevelopped, and Seerdomin's Masochistic soul got on my nerves.
Though Gradithan raping her was insanely disturbing for the use of Saemenkelyk and what it did to her.


All in all I enjoyed the parts with cultists and kelyk abuse and wierd black stuff coming out of people and driving them all insane. It was wonderfully atmospheric in a massively dark way that always cheered me up.
Though a whole group of whinny Andii brats did nothing at all to endear me, infact had their been another way to explore the Dying God arc I would have been happy without them.
Those characters have never ever felt like they're supposed to be there, they don't fit. I feel like they're excess baggage.
And the idea of Nimander in charge of the Andii makes me fear for their survival, or it would have had MD not been there.

Then again I like Felisin Paran and I didn't find the Mhybe tangent annoying (nothing positive to say, but nothing negative either.)

[Hinter]

 Darkwatch, on Mar 17 2009, 04:27 AM, said:

Spinnock Durav has my undying contempt, I seriously wish Kallor had killed him (probably would have to, had he seen his behaviour over the last few weeks).

I liked him (apart from the falling for Salind bit) and would like to know more about his previous life. Anyone that Rake considers as his goto guy has to be pretty hardcore.

[beru]

i want to hear about duravs travel to assail... (on his last day he had to fight some leage or two to get to the bay wich was upon his arival red with blood)

[Darkwatch]

Unfortunately all that awesomeness was lost during his actual "on-screen" presence.
He may have been Rake's go to guy for Sword fighting, but he didn't seem capable of anything but swordplay and basic bodily functions. He certainly couldn't think that's for sure. Enduring his internal monologue was irritating.

[RangerSG]

I'm terribly ambivalent about it.

I find Nimander and that whole party annoying to no end. But I found Salind an interesting character and I liked Seerdomin.

Personally the attempt to make Kallor a sympathetic character is a failure for me. I know I'm probably in a minority for that. But to me a mass murderer is a villain. Call it my quaint old-fashioned sense of objective morality. He's a walking display of hubris and he needs to be put down, end of story.

In the end, though I loved Itkovian in MoI and he's one of my favorite characters of the series, and his death in MoI is to me the most heroic in recent literature, I'd probably have preferred him to stay as he was. But I do like SE's discussions on religion, worshippers, and ascendancy. So that actually intrigues me no matter how many times he deal with it.

Maybe on a re-read it'll mean more to me. But seeing the loathing I have for Nimander and Clip, I might find it hard still.

[Abyss]

I liked the Andii characters. They treaded, at times dangerously close, to being excessively whiny, but ultimately they had their part to play...

Nimander and co were the next generation of Andii, not affected by the 'wah we've lived hundred of thousands of years and are bored' the older were stuck in, but still trying to find their way. While i disliked them in RG, I enjoyed them more when Kallor joined them, altho the clincher for me was when they finally stopped whining, starpped on their gear and started killing, which changed the context of everything - they were warriors and killers and were trying not to be that way, but left with no choice, they kicked butt.

Endest also treaded on Mhybe-territory but his flashbacks were VERY interesting, as were the various refs to him having protected Moon's Psawn on hios own when it was under the waterfall in MoI. You know right thru the book that he's being set up for a final stand, but when it happens, his whole plotline falls together so nicely it changed my view of the character.

Spin was just cool. Rake's go to guy, in love with a human, etc etc. No whining, minimal angst. I liked him, esp how he played off the priestess and Seerdomin.

The Priestess was also interesting as the link to Mommy D.


- Abyss, could say they darkened the tone a bit...

[Darkwatch]

 Abyss, on Mar 19 2009, 10:24 AM, said:

Spin was just cool. Rake's go to guy, in love with a human, etc etc. No whining, minimal angst. I liked him, esp how he played off the priestess and Seerdomin.

- Abyss, could say they darkened the tone a bit...

I'm not sure we had the same book under our eyes.
Spin was full of angst, either about Seerdomin, or Rake or Salind. Though I will admit that he doesn't whine much.
While it was very much in character, it was still angst.

[Abyss]

Ok, i grant you there was angst, but not to the point of inability to act, except regarding Salad, which was a plot point.


- Abyss, ...waaaaaahhhh....

[Mok]

Part of what I liked about the Nimander arc is that, as Abyss pointed out, it's showing the development of the next generation of Andii. I still have a hard time seeing Nimander as a leader, but then I had a hard time seeing Nimander as a leader in all the previous books. People just seemed to look up to him for some inexplicable reason. But by the end of TtH, he's got most of the whining out of his system, and he starts to take on a serious role and actually let his leadership come out. The story isn't about him being a leader, it's about him learning to be one, and like every person on the learning curve, he makes mistakes and has to deal with it.

Kallor did bring a world of good to that arc. I kind of disliked the almost 2-dimensional Kallor I was introduced to in MoI, but during TtH, his role and character was fleshed out a bit more and I came to at least understand and empathize with his point of view a little, which is step 1 for me liking a character. The way he sneers down on the group, like any real hero in SE's world would, is ultimately amusing. I'm kind of endeared to his worldview of making his best go, in spite of a curse that has persisted through the ages.

[dawnkiller]

Re: Kallor: Ditto, Mok. Kallor is like the Sisyphus of Wu. You keep pushing that boulder, little warlord.

Anyway, I enjoyed the DG thread. I admit I was disoriented that it had no clear connection to the Crippled God, because, as remarked, it seemed random -- but learning its core was Bellurdan saved it because, well, it was connected, just not to the thing I thought it was. Plus it was creepy, grotesque, told us a lot about the Avalii Andii, and I'm a whore for metaphysical prattling.

There's also, I think, a kind of literary merit to the inclusion of it. While the DG itself didn't tie in directly to the other forces, it did tie into the overall theme of the book: the love of personal destruction. Challice was an especially heinous offender here; she basically threw herself into her own "defilement," and in the end, rather than do something like, you know, leave and start over, chose to take a swan dive off the tower (and the peasants rejoiced). The Crippled God has a love of the flawed, and demands it in his followers; if they weren't at the start, they soon become so, often physically as well as mentally. He was destroyed, so he seems intent on bringing as many others down as he can -- for love of the process as much as simple spite. The DG was arguably even worse, since his adherents would chug kelyk to the exclusion of all else -- eating, working, and eventually living. As a religion, there was literally no redeeming feature. As for the Redeemer's religion, it was too much in the opposite direction -- everything accepted, nothing rejected, and the only one paying a price the god in charge of absolution. The reason for all this, I think, is to imply something about the state of Wu. Powers are clashing, the world is destabilized, and people are groping for any kind of certainty they can find -- even if it's something appalling. The DG cult is reminiscent of the Tenescowri . . . and I think that was intentional. The repeated resurgence of these death-cults, and the fact people are actually embracing them, is a sign something is seriously out of whack. I consider it classy writing to express the same theme in different ways. Makes the book feel solid.

In summary, I dug it.

[tsr]

After reading Toll the Hounds again, I think Mok got it right. This was the Nimander Arc. Not the Dying God Arc. And after this second read, I found myself understanding the plot lines a lot deeper. It's amazing the foreshadowing you can miss when you rip right thru a book the first time.

Toll the Hounds really does something to wrap up plot lines and then open a shred of light on where it's all going, just enought for you to Dread what he's going to drag the cast of characters thru next.

The Toll of the Hounds is Redemption to the lost, and Grief to the rest. Quite poignant I feel.

T.Sr.

[Fisher]

Strangest part of the Nimander arc was the way Desra stopped existing about two thirds of the way through the book.

Also, Endest Silaann was hardcore. Held back the ocean for a whole month. Faced down a god. Gave us cool flashbacks into the Karkanus Era. Total badarse.