[Viandaran]

just an observation - the Seguleh seem very much like the Haruchai if they chose to bear arms.

ps. please don't freak on me if this type of random post goes somewhere else, just let me know for the future.

EDIT: Change of Title [Dancer]

This post has been edited by Dancer: 17 December 2008 - 10:08 AM

[Aptorian]

Well, elaborating on the subject might garner a little more attention.

Who the hell are the Haruchai?

[Possum]

The Haruchai are from Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books. So people that havent read them wont know who they are.

In my opinion theyre far more similar to Crimson Guard than the Seguleh. eg Vow's that make them immortal (to a certain degree).

Apart from that the only similararity between Seguleh - Haruchai would be the warrior code of honour etc. which is also shared by the Crimson Guard. Just my opinion!

[Viandaran]

@apt - good point! i tend to assume everyone on this forum has read pretty much everything in the fantasy genre. i'll provide more detail (rather than NONE ) in the future. please see below.

@possum - agreed on their respective Vows making the CG similar to the Haruchai, but that's about it.

these are some defining characteristics of SRD's Haruchai:

the Haruchai are a militant society stratified by fighting ability, very reserved, showing little or no emotion, almost indistinguishable from each other by traits of personality, virtually unmatched in combat, very gymnastic in physical ability, driven (or even compelled) to prove their fighting arts against their own and outsiders, unwilling (possibly unable) to modify their behavior for any other culture or given situation, and completely unforgiving of failure.

maybe it's just me, but i'd say that list could apply to the Seguleh.

the CG are incredibly diverse as individuals and their "warrior code of honor" is a bit more... flexible... than that of the Haruchai or Seguleh.

[Aptorian]

That does sound like the Seguleh.

Allthough there's still so much we don't know about the Seguleh society.

[Lisheo]

Id actually say the Crimson Guard are closer to the Haruchai. Although they don't have that ridiculous ott sense of honour that the Haruchai have.

[Viandaran]

 Lisheo, on Dec 14 2008, 09:29 AM, said:

Id actually say the Crimson Guard are closer to the Haruchai. Although they don't have that ridiculous ott sense of honour that the Haruchai have.

possum felt that way too, but again i'd say:

Quote

agreed on their respective Vows making the CG similar to the Haruchai, but that's about it.

these are some defining characteristics of SRD's Haruchai:

the Haruchai are a militant society stratified by fighting ability, very reserved, showing little or no emotion, almost indistinguishable from each other by traits of personality, virtually unmatched in combat, very gymnastic in physical ability, driven (or even compelled) to prove their fighting arts against their own and outsiders, unwilling (possibly unable) to modify their behavior for any other culture or given situation, and completely unforgiving of failure.

maybe it's just me, but i'd say that list could apply to the Seguleh.

the CG are incredibly diverse as individuals and their "warrior code of honor" is a bit more... flexible... than that of the Haruchai or Seguleh.

This post has been edited by Viandaran: 14 December 2008 - 03:57 PM

[D'rek]

Well my memory is vague as I haven't read the Donaldson books in a while, but anyhoo to me the fundamental difference is that the Haruchai have a thing with never accepting defeat or any breach of their code or any such. This is in high contrast to the Seguleh since not only are there renegade Seguleh and such, but additionally, when things like Lady Envy ensnaring them into service or such happens, they don't go kamikaze trying to break out of it, they just kind of roll with it, whereas the Haruchai would rather die then let live in such circumstances.

Of course, peoples that swear vows and become immortal martial artists are not uncommon in fantasy...

[Viandaran]

i can't possibly give you that the Seguleh "just roll with it" when Envy ensnares them. i can't quote at the moment, but to paraphrase, she says, (maybe to Tool?) "do you know how HARD IT IS to keep these guys (the 3 Seguleh) in line ?!?!" she gives the impression that she is fighting constantly (in a magical sense) to keep them under her control. (on a tangent, this is why i said in the "best swordsman thread" that the Seguleh may have a magical component to their constitution.) i can quote-hunt for you but i'm really slow at it (most times it takes me forever just to figure out which book it's from ) any of you quote machines that can help me out i'd appreciate it! (i think it's when they are on the ship.) the Seguleh, as the Haruchai, are simply very patient and will wait for their chance to escape Envy. neither race would go kamikaze, they would find a weak point and apply constant pressure until it broke.

and my bad, because the entire Haruchai race didn't swear the oath (which made them near immortal, as the CG), the Bloodguard did (an elite subsegment of the Haruchai). however, everything else i said of the Haruchai holds true for the whole race. i know you (D'Rek) said you haven't read the Covenant books in a while, but there are renegade/banished Haruchai just as there are Seguleh of the same. Rell had to chose banishment just because he questioned the judges in a duel - a breach of their code. i don't think the Seguleh are any more forgiving of failure or "dissent" than the Haruchai.

This post has been edited by Viandaran: 15 December 2008 - 01:32 AM

[D'rek]

Ah. I did indeed forget that there was a distinction between Haruchai and Bloodguard. My bad!

[dktorode]

 Viandaran, on Dec 15 2008, 02:11 AM, said:

i don't think the Seguleh are any more forgiving of failure or "dissent" than the Haruchai.

On the contrary...i think the segulah are VERY forgiving.
When Tool fights ,and beats, the two Segulah accompanying Mok, they dont get punished for failing.
They lose/fail in an engagement, they take the defeat and place the victor above themselves almost honoring the victor.
The haruchai would rather die IIRC.
Similar, but quite different if you ask me.

[Aptorian]

Well, the seguleh fighting for Hood and the Second in TTH were said to be disgraced for having died at the hands of a foreigner. The Soldier remarked that sacrificing their lives to halt chaos was nearly enough to make up for their shame.

Don't really know how that fits into the seguleh perspective.

Like I wrote above, there's a lot we don't know or understand about these people.

[dktorode]

 Aptorian, on Dec 15 2008, 01:12 PM, said:

Don't really know how that fits into the sehuleh perspective.

Like I wrote above, there's a lot we don't know or understand about these people.

true dat

perhaps getting killed by a "foreighner" is dishonorable.
Whereas losing but not dying gives them the opportunity to get better and redeem themselves?

This post has been edited by dktorode: 15 December 2008 - 11:23 AM

[Viandaran]

within both societies' fighting hierarchies, losing in the contests is accepted and tolerated. it is part of learning and getting better. the haruchai don't fight to the death when training with each other. they fight for "rank" and gain or lose position according to their internal fighting system, as do the Seguleh.

"...they take the defeat and place the victor above themselves almost honoring the victor." - both groups do this. it certainly doesn't mean there isn't any disgrace in losing. if you are the 9th and get beat by the 10th, in a society completely built on relative fighting position, there is likely to be some sort of social censure (at least by #1-#9) and a definite "black eye" on your reputation. in both societies, the defeated would pick themselves up, keep a blank face, and train like hell for the rematch.

as you (dktorode) said, "...losing but not dying gives them the opportunity to get better and redeem themselves". i think this holds for both but i think their disdain for failure is what drives them to redeem themselves.

and being beat/killed by a foreigner is anathema to both cultures.

but you are right in that the Haruchai/Bloodguard do seem more willing to "fight to the death" in a given confrontation.

question: have we ever seen a Seguleh "submit"? i.e., voluntarily "give up" in a fight without being killed or knocked/magicked unconscious? i'm wondering if they are any more willing than the Bloodguard to lose a "real" fight.

This post has been edited by Viandaran: 15 December 2008 - 05:21 PM

[dktorode]

Lets not forget though...that it would seem that the segulah dont actually fight each other when they get placed in there rank, at least it looks that way for their initial placing/ranking.
Rell states that they do a "test" were they perform a series of movements and are judged on how precise they do these and are then ranked accordingly.

like gymnastics?

So...do they ever fight each other?
Or do they only fight foreigners and rely solely on this "test" to get higher in the rankings.

[Viandaran]

 dktorode, on Dec 15 2008, 10:36 AM, said:

Lets not forget though...that it would seem that the segulah dont actually fight each other when they get placed in there rank, at least it looks that way for their initial placing/ranking.
Rell states that they do a "test" were they perform a series of movements and are judged on how precise they do these and are then ranked accordingly.

like gymnastics?

So...do they ever fight each other?
Or do they only fight foreigners and rely solely on this "test" to get higher in the rankings.

nice point!

if so, i'd have to assume after that initial "placement" that they'd actually fight to determine rank. since they are able to "challenge" each other for position there'd have to be some type of contest and I can't imagine the whole thing being determined by a performance of "forms". but i can't recall anything specific, so anyone with more info please advise.

plus not actually fighting each other would sorely limit their ability to develop such an incredible fighting style. there's only so much that "practice" can teach you.

also, being defeated by a "foreigner" wouldn't hold such distinction/shame as Aptorian pointed out. if they only ever fought foreigners, it would be the normal form of defeat.

This post has been edited by Viandaran: 15 December 2008 - 05:23 PM

[Onos]

I am pretty sure the Seguleh would have cause more of an issue for Envy had they wanted to since they seem quite stubborn. But they probably realized that their goals were in line as they were both trying to deal with the Panion Domin. My opinion is that if she had forced them to wage war against their own people i dont think Envy could have forced that.

[Dancer+]

 Viandaran, on Dec 15 2008, 05:11 PM, said:

 dktorode, on Dec 15 2008, 10:36 AM, said:

Lets not forget though...that it would seem that the segulah dont actually fight each other when they get placed in there rank, at least it looks that way for their initial placing/ranking.
Rell states that they do a "test" were they perform a series of movements and are judged on how precise they do these and are then ranked accordingly.

like gymnastics?

So...do they ever fight each other?
Or do they only fight foreigners and rely solely on this "test" to get higher in the rankings.

nice point!

if so, i'd have to assume after that initial "placement" that they'd actually fight to determine rank. since they are able to "challenge" each other for position there'd have to be some type of contest and I can't imagine the whole thing being determined by a performance of "forms". but i can't recall anything specific, so anyone with more info please advise.

plus not actually fighting each other would sorely limit their ability to develop such an incredible fighting style. there's only so much that "practice" can teach you.

also, being defeated by a "foreigner" wouldn't hold such distinction/shame as Aptorian pointed out. if they only ever fought foreigners, it would be the normal form of defeat.

Although we do not know for sure I cannot help but feel after the initial placement into the Agatii everyone would fight, at least sometimes, for rank. I'd imagine that once in the Agatii you could challenge anyone but the one above you would have no compulsion to accept your challenge, unless you were close to them in the rankings, and you could be, effectively, snubbed. The Seguleh seem like they would struggle to tolerate younger/aggressive fighters challenging people far above their level, but yet we do not know for certain. We can only formulate opinions on what we've heard in the past and what their ways indicate they would do. Societies like this tend to have conflicting, and hard to interpret, codes so it really is too difficult to predict easily.

Fighting with form and accuracy is not a true test of fighting ability; handling pressure, reacting to situations and figuring out an opponent is over half the battle when you get to a certain level so it would be pragmatic, excepting fights to the death, to actually duel.

[dktorode]

The simple fact is we dont know EXACTLY what they do amongst themselves.
All we know is that there is a test, that gives you a rank.
And that this test is only done by performing "forms"
We only know that when a foreigner challenges it would seem that they must fight.
I would think the "forms" way of placing segulah could have been put into place to stop them all from killing each other over a thing like rank.
Would be an awful waste of a fighter if Segulah 1st and 3rd go at it only to have 3 kill 1.

[dktorode]

Or they fight with wooden swords...and padding