[Epiph]

Topper, on Dec 10 2008, 02:22 PM, said:

I am aware that he didn't die in the arms of Matron but it isn't exactly something that one could survive without magic. Yes, magic was present, but if we are discussing Toc getting his eye poked out by the short end of the stick, the Matron episode should count several times over.

Not when the events are taking place in a world where people are being saved by magic all the time. That's like saying, "I still consider him dead because that heart transplant doesn't count. Without it, he would have died."

[Topper]

Epiph, on Dec 11 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Topper, on Dec 10 2008, 02:22 PM, said:

I am aware that he didn't die in the arms of Matron but it isn't exactly something that one could survive without magic. Yes, magic was present, but if we are discussing Toc getting his eye poked out by the short end of the stick, the Matron episode should count several times over.

Not when the events are taking place in a world where people are being saved by magic all the time. That's like saying, "I still consider him dead because that heart transplant doesn't count. Without it, he would have died."

I am sorry that this offends you so. I used the term "die" too loosely. When I say 'should count several times over,' I mean, count several times over in the sense of, "wow, that sucks," thus 'the getting his eye poked out by the short end of the stick.'

[Epiph]

Topper, on Dec 11 2008, 05:29 PM, said:

Epiph, on Dec 11 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Topper, on Dec 10 2008, 02:22 PM, said:

I am aware that he didn't die in the arms of Matron but it isn't exactly something that one could survive without magic. Yes, magic was present, but if we are discussing Toc getting his eye poked out by the short end of the stick, the Matron episode should count several times over.

Not when the events are taking place in a world where people are being saved by magic all the time. That's like saying, "I still consider him dead because that heart transplant doesn't count. Without it, he would have died."

I am sorry that this offends you so. I used the term "die" too loosely. When I say 'should count several times over,' I mean, count several times over in the sense of, "wow, that sucks," thus 'the getting his eye poked out by the short end of the stick.'

First of all, I'm not offended, I just think you're wrong Second, yeah, getting crushed by a lizard bitch and healed so it can happen over and over and over sucks...but that's not death and resurrection, so for the purposes of the discussion, it doesn't "count."

[PhDR]

Hmmm, what it seems Topper is getting at is Toc has suffered through something quite a bit worse than death.

While Topper was probably wrong in his/her use of the word "death" in his/her first post, I think his/her main point (or implied point) is that being toruted with the use of Matron sucks beyone belief (<--haha, wow, that's really clunky...if you need clarification, I can attempt to try again ), and that death is much more preferable.

I don't think this topic is about Toc's death, rather about the tragedies that he's gone through. (Original post: The poor guy's already died twice and been brought back. He's now lost an eye three times and at the end of RG he dies again. Only to come back again some time in the future. Poor sap.)

Poor guy

(This site is fepic. I can't believe I didn't find it sooner)

[Jude]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM, PhDR! I hope you find it as life ruining as I have!

I agree, this discussion is totally about the tragedies Toc has faced, and he might be the most tragic character in the whole damn series, although I gotta say Felisin was up there cause she had some shit to deal with too and didn't even get to go out like a hero. Plus she wasn't as tough as Toc so she couldn't put on as brave a face.

[Benji]

Jude, on Dec 12 2008, 02:02 AM, said:

WELCOME TO THE FORUM, PhDR! I hope you find it as life ruining as I have!

I agree, this discussion is totally about the tragedies Toc has faced, and he might be the most tragic character in the whole damn series, although I gotta say Felisin was up there cause she had some shit to deal with too and didn't even get to go out like a hero. Plus she wasn't as tough as Toc so she couldn't put on as brave a face.

I don't think Felisin by herself is all that tragic. What makes her story sad is that she fights the adjunct without even knowing how to use a sword. Tavore kills her and doesn't even know that Sha'ik is her sister.

Apolohies about any spelling mistakes buyt I'm rather drunk right now

[Jude]

Actually Benji, here's a quote from Epiph that definitely shows how Felisin is an amazing example of a tragic character.

Epiph, on Dec 8 2008, 03:47 PM, said:

I can see why you would equate Felisin with Jordan's female characters, but I have to respectfully disagree. Jordan's females are all so similar that they can only be identified by the color of their dress. While I think Erikson's female characters are a little weak, there is so much more to Felisin and her storyline than the Mary-Sue-ness of a Jordan female. In fact, what makes Erikson's females so much better is how he takes the expectation of a Mary Sue and turns it on its head. Felisin is a young, pretty noble, and by fantasy convention, one would expect her to pluckily rise above her slavery and save the day, or whatever. Instead, she uses the only thing she has available to barter with--her body--and the resulting emotional scars cause her to walk down a the path of addiction. She ultimately overcomes and becomes one of the most powerful people in 7 Cities, with her all-consuming goal of vengence in her grasp, only to die. Pretty spectacular use of fantasy cliche expectation, if you ask me, and incredibly tragic.

[Benji]

Hmm... Good point.

Although I think there are still more tragic people out there. Seren Pedac, Trull Sengar and Hull Beddict to name just three.

Hells, even Pannion is a tragic character.

[Epiph]

The tragedy of Felisin's story in no way takes away from any other tragedies. Erikson has a penchant for the tragic, after all. Personally, I found Felisin's story gut wrenching every step of the way, while the others you mentioned only became so at the end.

[Jude]

now now Epiph, let's be fair. Trull was tragic as shit right from the Getgo. Especially from the beginning of Tides. see we knew all along that he was going to be shorned so it was only a matter of finding out why and seeing him interact with his people and family before reaching that point. by the end of Tides I was like "nooo way... this guy is the shit... and I feel so bad for him" but I knew it was coming all the way through. That's not even bringing up anything that happened to him in the subsequent books. I didn't find Seren all that tragic but I think it was because she wined too much so it made it moot. For myself I would probably hold Felisin and Trull as the two most tragic plot lines of the series with Toc as fourth and Hedge as third. I DARE anyone to argue Hedge's position!

[The Drum]

Mmmmmm.

Most tragic figure -

Toc the Younger

Trull Sengar

Feilisin

Whiskey Jack


Sorry Jude but i just don't see Hedge as tragic, mildly insane, Yes, tragic, no.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Do you ever wonder if Toc's life is mirroring his father's?

Maybe Toc the Elder is somewhere out there with several deaths under his belt, one eye...and no face.

[Aptorian]

Maybe Toc the Younger is Toc the Elder? dun dun duuuun.

Kidding aside, I'm guessing you've not read Return of the Crimson Guard, DM? You learn more about Toc Elder there-

[Dolorous Menhir]

No, I haven't got round to it yet. Why, is it good?

[Aptorian]

I was just commenting on Toc the Elders whereabouts.

It is a good but flawed book. It reads like any other Malazan book, it's just missing some polish.

It's a must read, if nothing else for some of the insane events of the ending.

[beru]

The three times Toc looses his left (i think) eye

-PALE making a scar of his face too

-Capustan (where anster loses his eye)

-Awl somwhere in the betraying

when his soul get shifted into anasters body he also get a new eye from healing...<= may be wrong

[Epiph]

Jude, on Dec 12 2008, 09:54 PM, said:

now now Epiph, let's be fair. Trull was tragic as shit right from the Getgo. Especially from the beginning of Tides. see we knew all along that he was going to be shorned so it was only a matter of finding out why and seeing him interact with his people and family before reaching that point. by the end of Tides I was like "nooo way... this guy is the shit... and I feel so bad for him" but I knew it was coming all the way through. That's not even bringing up anything that happened to him in the subsequent books. I didn't find Seren all that tragic but I think it was because she wined too much so it made it moot. For myself I would probably hold Felisin and Trull as the two most tragic plot lines of the series with Toc as fourth and Hedge as third. I DARE anyone to argue Hedge's position!

That's true, although I, personally, thought Trull was the most boring character imaginable until RG...and then he died. If he had died in any book prior to RG, I wouldn't have cared.

[777th Segulah]

Yeah, he just keeps getting screwed over..

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Briar King, on Dec 10 2008, 07:30 AM, said:

Lifes a bitch and then you die........

It's a bittersweet symphony that's life...