[Shinrei]

No, because it neither attempts to control or explain anything, nor is it limited to early human existence.

[HoosierDaddy]

The 20th, on Dec 30 2008, 06:25 AM, said:

Or belief that something exists outside of human existence/understanding that we cannot/never will explain.

Which would say that human beings are prone to believe in a God, for no reason whatsoever. From my knowledge, there has been absolutely no religion founded on spontaneous belief in a vacuum. There is always something that is unexplainable to make them question what the phenomena is and why it is happening.

[Shinrei]

HoosierDaddy, on Dec 30 2008, 01:52 PM, said:

The 20th, on Dec 30 2008, 06:25 AM, said:

Or belief that something exists outside of human existence/understanding that we cannot/never will explain.

Which would say that human beings are prone to believe in a God, for no reason whatsoever. From my knowledge, there has been absolutely no religion founded on spontaneous belief in a vacuum. There is always something that is unexplainable to make them question what the phenomena is and why it is happening.

Um... except if God actually exists and the religion sprang from that....

Although I see where that explains the spread of a religion in its infancy. The message had to made 'viral' somehow since God or Gods didn't talk to everybody. What your definition doesn't explain are the intelligent peoples who are religious. There are plenty who are Christian, Buddhist or whatever who don't believe because they feel it explains the natural world, or because they're afraid of divine retribution or because they hope for paradise.
Maybe I'm a wocky Christian, but I don't believe in God for any of the reasons you listed...

This post has been edited by The 20th: 30 December 2008 - 01:14 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

No, that is explanation #2, there is an all-powerful being which is going to make life crap for you if you don't believe.

[Shinrei]

Sorry HD, I was probably editing my post to be clearer at the same time you were posting. Just making sure you notice my edit above.

[HoosierDaddy]

I saw it, and yes my background on religion tends to be their growth and affect on history and their affect on politics. Less so the philosophical side of things.

As to your edit: I think there are very few christians who even act like Christ in the first place, for those who do, I think there is a combination of the first two categories. Even intelligent people don't know everything, leaving space for faith in God in #1; for those non-bellievers I, speaking as one myself, the only that gives me pause is what if I'm wrong, nobody likes the idea of an eternity of torture, which is #2.

[Gem Windcaster]

That's a very interesting post, Stormy. I think I agree with most of it. I just want to bring up another reason Christians act morally. Many Christians feel they change supernaturally on the inside, which changes their perspective - which is to say they are filled with a supernatural love for other beings, which acts like an incentive to do good things. So essentially they have two different perspectives in the same body - one is the usual human, selfish and intellectual being - and the other is the supernatural part which influences and makes a strong impact on certain areas and thought processes. Christians are conflicted people - and it doesn't get any easier the more you believe, quite the contrary.

I know this won't make it into a theory of yours, since you don't believe in supernatural things, but I'm saying it anyway.

[HoosierDaddy]

Gem Windcaster, on Dec 30 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

That's a very interesting post, Stormy. I think I agree with most of it. I just want to bring up another reason Christians act morally. Many Christians feel they change supernaturally on the inside, which changes their perspective - which is to say they are filled with a supernatural love for other beings, which acts like an incentive to do good things. So essentially they have two different perspectives in the same body - one is the usual human, selfish and intellectual being - and the other is the supernatural part which influences and makes a strong impact on certain areas and thought processes. Christians are conflicted people - and it doesn't get any easier the more you believe, quite the contrary.

This is the same reason people give to charity, and that has nothing to do with supernatural forces or religion. Doing nice things make people feel good about themselves because it makes them think they are being a better person. Spirituality doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with it.

[Gem Windcaster]

HoosierDaddy, on Dec 30 2008, 02:33 PM, said:

Gem Windcaster, on Dec 30 2008, 08:29 AM, said:

That's a very interesting post, Stormy. I think I agree with most of it. I just want to bring up another reason Christians act morally. Many Christians feel they change supernaturally on the inside, which changes their perspective - which is to say they are filled with a supernatural love for other beings, which acts like an incentive to do good things. So essentially they have two different perspectives in the same body - one is the usual human, selfish and intellectual being - and the other is the supernatural part which influences and makes a strong impact on certain areas and thought processes. Christians are conflicted people - and it doesn't get any easier the more you believe, quite the contrary.

This is the same reason people give to charity, and that has nothing to do with supernatural forces or religion. Doing nice things make people feel good about themselves because it makes them think they are being a better person. Spirituality doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with it.

Yes, I am aware of that fact, however that wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about an actual supernatural change in people, where you love people you usually are not inclined to love and do things you otherwise are not inclined to do.

[Shinrei]

HoosierDaddy, on Dec 30 2008, 01:26 PM, said:

I saw it, and yes my background on religion tends to be their growth and affect on history and their affect on politics. Less so the philosophical side of things.

As to your edit: I think there are very few christians who even act like Christ in the first place, for those who do, I think there is a combination of the first two categories. Even intelligent people don't know everything, leaving space for faith in God in #1; for those non-bellievers I, speaking as one myself, the only that gives me pause is what if I'm wrong, nobody likes the idea of an eternity of torture, which is #2.

In my own analysis/pondering of my religions beliefs, I discarded #2 long ago. Fear of retribution thereby belief for expedience sake or to "hedge my bets" seemed to me a piss poor reason for faith.

For me, it is more a belief in the existence of the irrational and the illogical (thereby #1 doesn't fit exactly, because I am not using religion to explain anything but rather to state that there is that which cannot and will never be explained). I can't imagine discarding this and bowing to logic by stating "this is all there is" as this seems monumentally short sighted. #1 as it is worded brings too strongly the image of people who attempt to explain the natural world through divine intervention.

I'm not a very traditional Christian. If I die and that's it, nothingness, well, I'm not going to waste time worrying about it.

This post has been edited by The 20th: 30 December 2008 - 02:20 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

Yeah, faith is not that simple as trying to avoid something you fear. In fact, fear does not have that effect on people, or the 10 commandments would have been followed strictly the last 2000 years already.

To me, not being a Christian would be pure torture, and the incentive of being able to do good and having an eternal life beats any reasons like fear. Besides, the hell as torture is a debatable fact. For people that want to go to heaven, it might be, but not everyone wants to be with God for the rest of eternity, so in their case it's a matter of relativity.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 30 December 2008 - 03:32 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Gem Windcaster, on Dec 30 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

Yeah, faith is not that simple as trying to avoid something you fear. In fact, fear does not have that effect on people, or the 10 commandments would have been followed strictly the last 2000 years already.

To me, not being a Christian would be pure torture, and the incentive of being able to do good and having an eternal life beats any reasons like fear. Besides, the hell as torture is a debatable fact. For people that want to go to heaven, it might be, but not everyone wants to be with God for the rest of eternity, so in their case it's a matter of relativity.

1. Humanity provides reason do good w/out religion.
2. It is easy for people who think they are going to heaven to not worry about #2. Being sure that you are going to go to heaven, or more appropriate, not hell is the kind of moral certainty that tends to cause a lot of problems.
3. Where else are you going to be besides heaven or hell? Purgatory? Scaring peole as a ghost? Christianity provides no other alternatives.
4. More info on the bolded part please. Why would not being a christian be torture?

[Gem Windcaster]

HoosierDaddy, on Dec 30 2008, 04:55 PM, said:

1. Humanity provides reason do good w/out religion.
2. It is easy for people who think they are going to heaven to not worry about #2. Being sure that you are going to go to heaven, or more appropriate, not hell is the kind of moral certainty that tends to cause a lot of problems.
3. Where else are you going to be besides heaven or hell? Purgatory? Scaring peole as a ghost? Christianity provides no other alternatives.
4. More info on the bolded part please. Why would not being a christian be torture?

1. Yes, indeed. But reason is not enough. We're all humans here, so we all know our own shortcomings.
2. Me going to heaven is, to me, not based on anything I do or don't do, instead it's pure grace. I can never deserve heaven, or make a way there by myself. Heaven is a gift, a promise, and is not based on actions, but on faith, trust, and the recognition that Jesus Christ is the son of God.
3. Depends on perspective and definition. Hell might be more than one place, since it's defined as Not Heaven - i.e. not being close to God.
4. Because it's my ultimate purpose to be close to God - I am genetically and spiritually wired to be Gods friend, child and companion. It's more to it, but that would be would make a much longer post than you'd care to read. It's all there in the Bible, though.

[polishgenius]

Urb, on Dec 25 2008, 11:28 AM, said:

The 20th, on Dec 21 2008, 04:06 AM, said:

How are athiests marginalized? Has someone found themselves discriminated against or discovered a lack of some privilage because they were an athiest?

I can see gay marriage as a possible example, but what else?

Abortion?

Just to go back to this point in the topic, I don't think this is the same thing. Gay marriage won't harm anyone, and if they're not getting married in a Church (because, let's face it, doing that would be daft) there shouldn't be a problem with it. To a Christian though, abortion is effectively killing an innocent, and when we're arguing against abortion, we're arguing from our point of view for the rights of the baby, not against the rights of the woman.

That said, I hate how the abortion issue has become a rallying point for both 'sides' in Christian/atheist debates - because yes, while being a Christian will intrinsically mean not supporting abortion, the argument itself is not a religious one. I don't see at all why a non-Christian should automatically be for abortion rather than against, and the debate becoming basically atheists v Christians sidelines the actual issue under discussion.

[ch'arlz]

polishgenius, on Dec 30 2008, 12:00 PM, said:

while being a Christian will intrinsically mean not supporting abortion,

From Wikipedia:
The Eastern Orthodox, Mormon, Fundamentalist Protestant, and Roman Catholic denominations are against abortion. However, some of these denominations make exceptions in their doctrine for abortion performed to save the life of the mother, and in cases of pregnancy as a result of rape or incest.[8][9] Roman Catholics make no exceptions for cases of rape and incest, arguing that the way conception occurs makes no bearing on the sin of abortion. [10] The Roman Catholic Church also does not make an exception for the life of the mother per se, but it does not condemn procedures intended to save the mother that result in the loss of the unborn child as a "secondary effect."[10]

Some Mainline Protestants, such as Episcopalians, Methodists, United Reformed, Quakers, those in the United Church of Christ, and Presbyterians are generally pro-choice, as are Unitarian Universalists.

[stone monkey]

@ Gem- I have a small(ish) quibble. If you're genetically wired to be close to God (to worship him even), that might imply that when God created you he went to all the trouble of ensuring you would have to worship him...

Which smacks a little of cheating to me... More than that sounds a lot like hooking someone on crack just so you can sell them their rocks.

And why would anyone think that worshipping a deity that does something like that to people is a good idea? And why would an all-powerful and allegedly good Creator feel the need to resort to such underhand tactics?

[polishgenius]

ch'arlz, on Dec 30 2008, 05:15 PM, said:

polishgenius, on Dec 30 2008, 12:00 PM, said:

while being a Christian will intrinsically mean not supporting abortion,

From Wikipedia:
The Eastern Orthodox, Mormon, Fundamentalist Protestant, and Roman Catholic denominations are against abortion. However, some of these denominations make exceptions in their doctrine for abortion performed to save the life of the mother, and in cases of pregnancy as a result of rape or incest.[8][9] Roman Catholics make no exceptions for cases of rape and incest, arguing that the way conception occurs makes no bearing on the sin of abortion. [10] The Roman Catholic Church also does not make an exception for the life of the mother per se, but it does not condemn procedures intended to save the mother that result in the loss of the unborn child as a "secondary effect."[10]

Some Mainline Protestants, such as Episcopalians, Methodists, United Reformed, Quakers, those in the United Church of Christ, and Presbyterians are generally pro-choice, as are Unitarian Universalists.

Okay, being Catholic. Apologies, being Catholic myself I tend to use the terms somewhat interchangably. Which I shouldn't. Tsk.
Works even better with my point though. >_>

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 30 December 2008 - 05:42 PM

[polishgenius]

stone monkey, on Dec 30 2008, 05:18 PM, said:

@ Gem- I have a small(ish) quibble. If you're genetically wired to be close to God (to worship him even), that might imply that when God created you he went to all the trouble of ensuring you would have to worship him...

Which smacks a little of cheating to me... More than that sounds a lot like hooking someone on crack just so you can sell them their rocks.

And why would anyone think that worshipping a deity that does something like that to people is a good idea? And why would an all-powerful and allegedly good Creator feel the need to resort to such underhand tactics?

If He'd done that, then we would all worship him... which we don't, patently. And if you don't have the choice to worship Him, then it's not really worship, just programming.
We're meant to worship God (in my belief, in case someone tells me off for putting words in everyone's mouth or points out that I'm not Gem), but we don't have to.

[HoosierDaddy]

polishgenius, on Dec 30 2008, 12:42 PM, said:

We're meant to worship God (in my belief, in case someone tells me off for putting words in everyone's mouth or points out that I'm not Gem), but we don't have to.

Really... what happens if you don't worship God? You don't see a form of coercion in the whole Heaven/Hell thing? That is not a choice. It is an ultimatum.

Gem:
1. Are you saying that people who do good are doing it because of God? Because it sounds like you are saying that people can't do good just because they want to help somebody.
2. It isn't based on what you do or don't do? Free ticket to heaven?3
3. So... hell could simply be a universe without God? Ironic.
4. God wrote the genetic code? Why am I not hard-wired that way? Am I less important?

[Illuyankas]

Er, Gem? If you're genetically wired to worship God, then that must mean God genetically wired some people not to worship him, otherwise they would. You've just said that God deliberately condemned some people to hell.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 30 December 2008 - 06:13 PM