[Dancer+]

Onos, on Dec 8 2008, 06:50 PM, said:

hunterlj, on Dec 8 2008, 03:25 AM, said:

What about Spinnock? He held off Kallor in ToTH all night. And didnt it mention Kallor only one because of his immortality? Any list kallor is on spinnock should be too.

And what about Clip? Gruntle?

What do others think of Spinnock? Where would he belong?

Clip, i have no idea what his ability is.

Gruntle is an interesting one... my reaction says he doesnt belong on the list, but open to arguments.

Redmask: He was awesome at killing average soldiers. Never did more than that, though he possible had potential to.

I think Spinnock was quite fantastic, the top Andii seem to be fantastic swordsmen for some reason. Kallor is not poor but his fight with Spinnock utters the extreme likelihood that Spinnock could have beaten Kallor, with relative ease, if he had wanted to.

Clip and Gruntle are for me not even up there especially the former. Gruntle has a lot of strength and aggression but I don't believe his sword skills are particularly untouchable. Redmask was extremely talented but was not ascendant material; Karsa, Tool, Mok, Dassem Ultor, The First, Rake and Silchas etc. could have beaten him in my opinion.

[Aptorian]

Dancer, on Dec 9 2008, 11:42 AM, said:

I think Spinnock was quite fantastic, the top Andii seem to be fantastic swordsmen for some reason. Kallor is not poor but his fight with Spinnock utters the extreme likelihood that Spinnock could have beaten Kallor, with relative ease, if he had wanted to.

I don't get it. You think Rake asked Spinnock to kill himself delaying Kallor? There was no love between Rake and Kallor, he wouldn't have sent his right hand to stand in the way of Kallor just to have him die because he wasn't allowed to kill Kallor.

I think Spinnock was only able to last that long because he spent the entire fight defending himself, knowing that if he attempted an attack Kallor would have seized that opening and ended him.

I think the Kallor vs. Trull fight was sort of like Iccy vs. Trull, only less extreme and a lot longer

[Dancer+]

Aptorian, on Dec 9 2008, 10:57 AM, said:

Dancer, on Dec 9 2008, 11:42 AM, said:

I think Spinnock was quite fantastic, the top Andii seem to be fantastic swordsmen for some reason. Kallor is not poor but his fight with Spinnock utters the extreme likelihood that Spinnock could have beaten Kallor, with relative ease, if he had wanted to.

I don't get it. You think Rake asked Spinnock to kill himself delaying Kallor? There was no love between Rake and Kallor, he wouldn't have sent his right hand to stand in the way of Kallor just to have him die because he wasn't allowed to kill Kallor.

I think Spinnock was only able to last that long because he spent the entire fight defending himself, knowing that if he attempted an attack Kallor would have seized that opening and ended him.

I think the Kallor vs. Trull fight was sort of like Iccy vs. Trull, only less extreme and a lot longer

I've only read TtH once at lightning pace, before it even hit the stores, but the impression I got was Rake sent Spinnock to delay, not kill, Kallor. Kallor has a part to play in the future is my impression and Rake knew this. There was one part in the book which stands out considerably for me, which hints along the lines of: Spinnock was meticiously blocking, Kallor couldn't break his guard. Had it not been for Spinnock's lack of willingness to attack then things could have been a lot different. If you can defend someone for hours and hours it logically follows that you could break their guard. At least that's my impression of swordplay, defending without attacking is even more difficult to do than a mixture of the two. The best form of defence can be attack. If anyone can drag quotes of the battle out I'd appreciate it (as I'm in no position to do so).

Your logic doesn't have to work, Spinnock need not have died either way. He just needed to delay Kallor, he could have fleed after the battle.

[Battalion]

BRYS BEDDICT!!!

[KarsaOrlong]

Dassem should be at the top of the list, he is after all Dessembrae

Onos, on Dec 2 2008, 07:52 PM, said:

This thread is response to how powerful Kallor is with the sword. At first just wanted to throw it in that thread, but it is different as i am listed who i think are the best swordsmen. Note: I am ordering them as best i can. Some are nearly impossible to tell since they havent fought someone who has fought someone else. (Example: Mok and Onos have only really fought each other, no one else of relevance)

1. Rake
2. Dassem (How much is Grief helping him... still a champion either way, but now really want to know how Grief helps him)
3. Mok (For all i know he could be higher. We need more evidence on Mok, but i view him as one of the best of a race that seems entirely devoted to fighting prowess. Also he is only 3rd, but he is mentioned as perhaps being ready to challenge the first, so until we see the first or even the 2nd in a fight)
4. Onos (I would argue alive he could take Mok, but have no proof. Also Mok used two swords vs Onos' one, so that tells me a lot. 1 vs. 1 swords.... Isnt his title first sword? hundreds of thousands of years before all the other upstarts?)
5. Silchas (Clearly better than Iron Bars and thus probably ahead of Skinner. Solar used the Trull as a benchmark to rank Silchas ahead of Icarium in skill)
6. Icarium (Ok i now admit he is pretty fast. He could be even higher... I have dropped him back down due to Trull comparision)
7. Skinner (didnt seem THAT great, but that was against Dasseem. He beat Greymane it seems. Also his armour makes things tricky)
8. Greymane (didnt use the sword...)
9. Brys (i know some people think he is the shit... but the only evidence we had was him beating a still shitty Rhulad. He struck me as good... but not there with the rest. People seem adamant that he is better than i have placed him. Feeling info on him is lacking though he could slide up to 6th)
10. Trull (not a swordsman... ok below Silchas, but how far does he drop? Fairly good argument made he was below Brys)
11. Rell (He doesnt come with a lot of evidence fighting other good swordsmen... hard to place him exactly)
12. Kallor (he isnt the greatest but against lesser foes he is good. Would he have looked better if he knew he was fighting Dasseem?)
13. Karsa (He seems to have incredible speed... but think that is more his pocket warren. Also he was awed by Rake/Dasseem, so that should be a hint at his true skill)
14. Iron Bars (Good, but below Skinner, below Silchas, has trouble with the 1000 Seguleh)
15. Blues (could be better than Iron Bars)
16. Shimmer (could be better than Iron Bars or Blues)

Am i missing any notables? I think i am intentionally excluding WJ. Not sure where to add him, but i think he is near the bottom or even at the bottom of this list.

Thoughts? Complaints? (i am sure there will be many )

[Aptorian]

Dancer, on Dec 9 2008, 12:12 PM, said:

I've only read TtH once at lightning pace, before it even hit the stores, but the impression I got was Rake sent Spinnock to delay, not kill, Kallor. Kallor has a part to play in the future is my impression and Rake knew this. There was one part in the book which stands out considerably for me, which hints along the lines of: Spinnock was meticiously blocking, Kallor couldn't break his guard. Had it not been for Spinnock's lack of willingness to attack then things could have been a lot different. If you can defend someone for hours and hours it logically follows that you could break their guard. At least that's my impression of swordplay, defending without attacking is even more difficult to do than a mixture of the two. The best form of defence can be attack. If anyone can drag quotes of the battle out I'd appreciate it (as I'm in no position to do so).

Your logic doesn't have to work, Spinnock need not have died either way. He just needed to delay Kallor, he could have fleed after the battle.

Kallor killed WJ, both Rake and Korlat wanted him dead. Even Kallor notes that he needed to stay out of their way for a century or two.

Spinnock was so cut up by the end that Kallor was surprised he was still fighting and thus just chose to leave him to die from his wounds.

[Grief]

Kallor himself also notes that Spinnock wasnt trying to kill him, and had chances.
I reckon Rake may have been giving Kallor a chance to redeem himself sometime later. If Rake wanted Kallor dead, why send just one person. The andii all obey him. Fine, not many will be that near Spinnocks level, but some will be fairly close. He could have sent hundreds if he truly wanted kallor to die.

[Dancer+]

Grief, on Dec 9 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

Kallor himself also notes that Spinnock wasnt trying to kill him, and had chances.
I reckon Rake may have been giving Kallor a chance to redeem himself sometime later. If Rake wanted Kallor dead, why send just one person. The andii all obey him. Fine, not many will be that near Spinnocks level, but some will be fairly close. He could have sent hundreds if he truly wanted kallor to die.

This is what I happened to remember. And would have been what I next argued, well done Grief.

Rake thinks in the long term, he's not one for short term anger and he understands the necessity of sacrificing people/himself for the greater picture. Kallor killing Whiskeyjack was just a minor annoyance for him in the grand scheme of things, another loss but one he would take willingly if it meant he succeeded in his goal.

[Malaclypse]

*deleted mafia-related spam, you know who you are*

Also, Rake was clearly the best swordsman, best all-around combatant, and almost certainly one of the strongest mages. In short, the baddest of the badasses. Dude went on safari to Seguleh Island. Living? probably Dassem (Dassem>Kallor>Spinnock). For (more or less) common mortals, Brys, Tool and Mok/Seguleh 1st - two swords versus one with that insane level of skill seems a significant advantage to me but I'd still bet on Tool.

[Onos]

Malaclypse, on Dec 9 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

For (more or less) common mortals, Brys, Tool and Mok/Seguleh 1st - two swords versus one with that insane level of skill seems a significant advantage to me but I'd still bet on Tool.

Finally someone agrees with me on the swords! How on earth could anyone block someone with Moks level of skill using two swords with one? I big wieldy two hander no less! I am sure if i reenacted the fight with two people of equal skill the 2 sworder should always win even if they arent ambidestrous. Tempted to test it by gathering my friends together and fight it out!

I would rank Spinnock above Kallor. Defending is easier I would say, BUT you only have to mess up once. After 8 hours of me defending i am positve my 6 year old nephew could stick a knife in me if i was purely defending to not hurt him. So far people have come down on both sides of this one...

[Dancer+]

Onos, on Dec 9 2008, 07:10 PM, said:

Malaclypse, on Dec 9 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

For (more or less) common mortals, Brys, Tool and Mok/Seguleh 1st - two swords versus one with that insane level of skill seems a significant advantage to me but I'd still bet on Tool.

Finally someone agrees with me on the swords! How on earth could anyone block someone with Moks level of skill using two swords with one? I big wieldy two hander no less! I am sure if i reenacted the fight with two people of equal skill the 2 sworder should always win even if they arent ambidestrous. Tempted to test it by gathering my friends together and fight it out!

I would rank Spinnock above Kallor. Defending is easier I would say, BUT you only have to mess up once. After 8 hours of me defending i am positve my 6 year old nephew could stick a knife in me if i was purely defending to not hurt him. So far people have come down on both sides of this one...

I remember being the only one to argue this back in the days of the majority of the Tool/Mok threads, it was frustrating that people did not seem to acknowledge this point but we have two in consecutive posts, I'm happy.

For me, the two first swords always stuck out like a mountain for me in terms of skill. I've just realised, Dassem is more effective at swordplay now because Rake's, now, dead. So Dassem > Rake. *waits for the ire of others*

[Grief]

WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG.

For reasons that have been discussed a lot .

Thats like the best way to derail a thread, bringing up said sword fight...

[Viandaran]

it is a testament to SE's character development how biased we all are toward our favorites (no matter how objective and logical we think we're being.)

so much of this is theory, and at that, theory based upon the opinions of other characters (e.g., ST thinks not even Cotillion could have performed the Claw massacre as Apsalar did, yet Apsalar herself is unsure if she'd walk away from a fight with Kalam).

"on any given day" definitely holds true in this universe. few of our favorite demigods would get a guaranteed win over another from SE so it's all just great fodder for speculation.

top swordsman...eh... probably rake, but it's virtually impossible to separate a magic wielder's magic from their sword skills.

how much of these characters' magic is manifest when simply sword-fighting? is it making them stronger, faster, more enduring? they don't have to be throwing fireballs to be using their magic. they don't even have to be conscious of it. it's indicated that rake is using magic all the time just to carry Super-Stormbringer. the segulah are incredible fighters, but we don't know either way if magic plays some role in their abilities. it would seem so since Lady Envy implies she's under significant magical strain (and she's no slouch!) to keep her 3 "ensnared" Seguleh under her control. if so, then comparing brys to the 2nd might not be apples to apples. who knows.

great discussion, but i don't know that we can distill these characters down to a level playing field to determine an "order". the flat-out mixed martial arts (and i don't mean simply hand-to-hand), everything goes, "who could beat who's ass" is a more realistic challenge - one that i think has been covered, oh, a few times.

now, i'm an icarium fan. i want him to smash the crap out of a lot of your favorites out there. people say he won't be able to maintain his rage against some of the bigger players. i haven't seen any indication that he has to (or can) consciously "start, maintain, or end" anything. it's not under his control. it's not like he's flexing! quick ben hit him with everything he had over and over and icarium's power hulked-up until he was pushing through it. i think our very rational bad-asses (rake [who is awesome] being the top of that group) would have removed icarium from the world if they could do it easily, regardless of their pity. he's a time-bomb not under their control and they wouldn't let that hang around if they could take it out. and yes, karsa KTFO'd icarium. had mappo not intervened, i'm not sure icarium's magic would have allowed karsa to kill him while unconscious. i think mappo knew this. i'd bet the "rage" would manifest to protect him. otherwise, someone would have surprised him long ago (that boy is OLD!), knocked him out pre-rage and killed him. and karsa only attacked icarium because he was still "kill the children" karsa who was ignorant of virtually everything. he would have attacked rake or dassem just as quickly at that point (even though he exhibits respect/awe/a bit of fear? later when seeing those two fight).

the tragic hero appeals to me so icarium's my boy. (check out Cain in Stover's "Heroes Die" et al- brilliant).
bottom line, i read it my way, you read it your way...but my guy kicks your guy's ass every time (unless SE specifically decides otherwise )

This post has been edited by Viandaran: 15 December 2008 - 05:40 PM

[Silencer]

By your logic, Viandaran, someone would have done the same to Rake, no? Indeed, they tried, but failed every time.

Rake is by far the most skilled swordsman, sorry Dancer. Malaclypse is definitely right in this regard. Now that he is dead, of course, Dassem is the new master of swordplay. That does NOT make him better than Rake.

And yes, the two swords thing always bugged me. You can't really compare it, after all - a person has to be, theoretically, twice as fast to block two swords with one...

[Dancer+]

I see no evidence for conclusively believing that Rake is a better swordmaster than Dassem. You see no reason for the other way around, it's going to have to stay that way unfortunately. Rake is certainly more hardy than Dassem but I think Dassem's technique and will is singular at least in terms of humans. I can understand that Rake is also singular in many respects but I don't think this necessarily translates fully over to swordplay. I personally think in a duelling match Icarium would eventually beat both of them because as it stands I see no evidence to believe that Icarium can die (and the situation is so different that this point has to be merited). Dragnipur was always Rake's unfair advantage. He clearly wields Dragnipur as fast as anyone can wield a sword so is there any evidence that his ability is impaired, we cannot say. He is clearly an alien force to us, someone who can both be strained to the point of falling to his knees but, just after, managing to concentrate and block attacks from another one of the top three swordsmen we've met yet (Rake, Icarium and Dassem).

I will continue to believe that Dassem is capable of all that I believe him to be, you continue to believe Rake is the best that ever lived, overall, as it's probably true. I like to think that Gothos, Draconus or others could give him a run for his money though (and before you say Draconus lost to Rake, it's not as simple as that). Erikson said Gothos is the one ascendant he'd choose to have as his shaved knuckle in the hole, so he'd prefer Gothos to Rake; that means something.

Silencer, you are wrong. Dassem is better than Rake because Rake is physically incapable of using a sword. You don't say an old man, who has no physical ability, is the best at swordplay. You say he was the best, the same is true of Rake

@Viandaran: Brillant first/second post, welcome to the forum

[Viandaran]

Silencer - absolutely, i'm sure people have tried to kill all these guys over the years in every way possible. rake and the andii have probably seen it all a few times and protect themselves accordingly. NO ONE is going to punch him in the face and knock him out. going into any fight, rake would be ready offensively and defensively to the best of his ability because he has control of his powers.

if icarium had control of his power and could hit the "on switch" when starting to fight, karsa would not have been able to knock him out (at least i'd bet against it). what i'm saying is i don't think the nameless would create their uber-weapon with such a glaring weakness (that being "knock him out pre-rage and kill him"). it would have been taken advantage of long ago - so i'm speculating that icarium's magic would have stepped in (since it is not under his conscious control).

who knows - but either way, like rake, icarium's been around for a very long time, thus every attempt on his life has failed every time too. i don't think that would be the case if you could just "karsa" him and he's all done.

[Viandaran]

Dancer - thanks - glad to be here.

[BeLeG]

After TTH I believe that Dragnipur was a burden for Rake not an advantage.
Sure,any kind of injury with Dragnipur means death but by the end of TTH who could lift the damn weapon AND fight against Dassem Ultor(who had Vengeance)???

[Dancer+]

BeLeG, on Dec 10 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

After TTH I believe that Dragnipur was a burden for Rake not an advantage.
Sure,any kind of injury with Dragnipur means death but by the end of TTH who could lift the damn weapon AND fight against Dassem Ultor(who had Vengeance)???

How do we know Dragnipur puts strain on the owner whilst they are using it in combat? There is nothing to prove this. The sword was created by Draconus he might have thought about instances of this nature, it's burdening weight may have exerted itself at different times. I'm honestly yet to be convinced by a lot of people's assumptions. We can all agree that Dragnipur and Rake were exceptional so by that token normal assumptions largely are defunct.

Like I say, there's no evidence to suggest that Dragnipur was weighing down Rake in battle, plus to me the difference between the blows being too fast to register and the blows being even faster than the blows that were too fast to register doesn't have much signifiance past the fact that one might lead to a victory where the other one does not which cannot be proved anyway. All I know in that battle Dassem was fast enough and strong enough to lance Dragnipur back into Rake's head. All I can say is that I wasn't surprised, or expecting otherwise, that Dassem would beat Rake at that point. I admit that circumstances and context shaped these expectations but they were there at the time, and surely that means something. One of my favourite quote from the whole book is probably:

P827 TtH HB said:

Perched in a niche close to the gate, Chillbais tracked the one known as Traveller. The demon was shaking uncontrollably. The bellowing of Hounds, the detonations of entire buildings, the arrival of the Son of Darkness and the slaying of a God - oh, any of these could have been sufficient cause for such quivering terror. Even that ruined moon thrusting skyward to the south. Alas, however, it was none of these that had eliticed the winged toad's present state of abject extremity.
No, the source was threading through the crowd at the gate, now passing beneath the arch. The one named Traveller. Oh, he held in so much of himself, a will of such breathtaking intensity that Chillbais imagined it could, if the man so desired, reach into the heavens, close about all those spinning pieces in the sky, and remake the entire moon.

Re-reading the battle again, I do get the slight feeling that Rake was holding too much back which gives slight credence to the Rake > Dassem argument, but I cannot truly say and we'll never know really. My feelings at the time were that Rake was fallable where Dassem was not and so it turned out to be.

EDIT: A question, how many sword fights do we see Rake in in the series? And how many do we see Traveller in? Don't you think we hold too much store in Rake's reputation rather than trusting to hard evidence? (e.g. we don't know how Rake beat Draconus exactly, it might not have been because of a superiority in duelling. I know citing everyone in Dragnipur as evidence is reasonable but it's not hard evidence as that could have been achieved through a melange of different methods.)

This post has been edited by Dancer: 11 December 2008 - 10:11 AM

[BeLeG]

the logical thing to assume is that Dragnipur is a constant burden,even in battle.When Endest thinks that Dragnipur would drive every other god and ascendant to their knees what else is there to assume?That Dragnipur's weight goes away when someone uses it in battle?Doesnt work for me as a logical assumption.Why does Rake feel the need to ease the burden if he is not affected?
Dragnipur is a constant burden,that's what I understood from TTH.It keeps Rake from unleashing his true power.That's why when he enters Dragnipur every single creature feels awe.They see Rake's true power.
Do you remember when Samar Dev actually felt that pressure going back to Rake before his fight with Dassem?


Ok about Rake :He chained at least 3 dragons.He didnt kill them.He was strong enough to keep them alive and chain them.He did beat Kilmandaros although she tried to sneak upon him.Same thing about another goddess,Apsal'ara.He did beat a score of Seguleh without a rest.He did beat Osserc at least once
He killed Pearl, a demon who could level Darujistan and the Galayn Lord who was probably even stronger

These feats are greater than Dassem's(at least in MbotF)

This post has been edited by BeLeG: 11 December 2008 - 11:20 AM