[Grief]

Karsa would get killed by most of the top league.

He couldn't follow Rake vs. Dassem.
Fighting HoL?
So does Cutter, doesn't make him some sort of fantastic swordsman.

He is definetely below Rake and Dassem.
Pretty sure Icarium enraged could beat him too, though the passive magic thing is a rather large advantage.

[Silencer]

@Sombra - I suppose Pearl counts. However, one thing you posted which I have to disagree with:

Quote

Since the thread is about pure skill and nothing else, I'd have to go Dassem Ultor or Seguleh 1st, then guys like Brys, Blues and maybe Rake in there somewhere (Seguleh 7th based on a contest of pure skill, iirc). With what Mok could do as the 3rd, I think the 1st must be insanely scary.

He was Seguleh 7th on a whim, visiting the island and deferring to nobody. He fought 20 Seguleh in a row culminating in the Seventh. Think about it - even if he was exhausted after that (and the definition of exhausted is up for challenge), that's after he's fought 20 others. Doesn't really matter what rank they were, tbh, but after TWENTY fights against members of a hugely obsessed warrior caste he defeated the Seventh highest ranked. Before stopping. Because he was tired. I would say that you can't judge his skill on the fact he is Seventh, rather that he made it to Seventh in like a day.

As for Mok and the First, Grief pointed it out, and he's correct, Mok was sent away because he was getting too close to the First's skill, and he didn't want to have Mok around any more in case of challenges. Now...do you think Rake could take either of them one-on-one at fresh? I'd bet a lot of money that he could. Easily.

[Grief]

You disagree with my point that the Galayn Lord was completely stalling against Rake?
It may be quoting time

[Silencer]

Wait, what? I never said that.

>.>

He was stalling, yes. But by that time he'd been fighting Rake in soletaken form for a while - he knew he would lose, plus Rake had Dragnipur out. tbh, he was lucky to last that long, so that he could realize he was outmatched. Most wouldn't have. Plus, all of these examples are from GotM. Has anyone else yet said his name in fear?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I think it has already been pointed out but in MoI Rake is the only one Kallor is scared of and we're talking of a guy who has lived 1000 of years and so must have seen lots of powerful and scary guys.

[Grief]

Well, the dragons in TBH said they were lucky to be alive.
Mael in MT senses an awakening not as distant as he would wish. I mean, when you get to the point of needing an ascendant of Ossercs level to delay him, that shows you are NOT wanting him around.

The thing is, most of the people who have cause to fear Rake, aren't around for very long. See Pales mages.

And unlike Icarium, he doesn't have a reputation for being massively angry/unreasonable, so most people just stay out of his way.

[Silencer]

You're right, but I still have yet to hear his name mentioned as some sort of...I dunno...legendary thing. He is, obviously, he even has an entire book of poems about him, but...Icarium is viewed by all as this unstoppable rage machine that will level cities. You mention Icarium, every is scared. Hence there is a reason for Karsa to show that it's just a legend. People hear of Rake, they either dismiss him, or just have a wary caution of him. He isn't some task that Karsa can prove is not impossible.

I dunno. It just seems that way to me. Personally, I support Rake as an uber-character - I think he's awesome. I also don't think Karsa would defeat him. Mainly because he is not seen as some legend, with all the attatched psychological chains that Karsa can shatter for people.

[Grief]

Yes, but Icarium isn't feared solely for his skill. Most of the legend is his rage. Sure, his skill is part of it, but thats not what people are really afraid of.
Compare the amount of times people go "Holy shit, its Icarium, he's very skillful with a sword" to the times people go "Holy is, its Icarium, he's got this passive magic and massive fucking rage problem that will fuck your shit up, regardless of whether you're his enemy or not"

As for levelling cities, it is mentioned that Rake could easily level Darujhistan.

[Grief]

The other thing is, Rake holds back.
He doesn't go about destroying cities etc, so the masses have little reason to fear him.
So yes, he doesn't get a reputation for that.
He could. And some people know he could. But most of those are the more learned, the people who read poems, and people who are fairly old.

Icarium is feared by most people, because he is damn unprediactable.
Rake, you can judge more, you can avoid angering him. Icarium either happens or he doesn't.

But among those ascendants who truly know both, Draconus, Gothos, Osserc, Brood, Kallor, and so on, I believe given the choice to fight one on one against either, most of them would choose to fight Icarium.

Of course, this doesn't take into account that many of them would sacrifice themselves to Rake rather than risk angering Icarium in case they lost, nor that Rake wouldn't fight most of them etc.

If they just had to choose which to fight 1v1, with no other effects afterwards, I think most would prefer their chances with Icarium.

[Benji]

Another point is this:

During GotM it's commonly bandied about that Rake's existence is not well known. Yes, this could be a GotMism, but if it's NOT... then that would go a long way to making all of this non-fear make sense.

Also, who have we seen that is actually his enemy? Kallor for one. Kallor was scared of Rake in MoI. That's a given. Who else? The Seguleh? They don't get scared as far as we know. Besides, they're not so much his enemy really. Osserc? Osserc is, by necessity, around about Rake's level anyway. Draconus? Draccy seems to have now realised that Rake was alright so why would he fear him? Especially when he was inside the sword. There really aren't many other people who SHOULD be scared of Rake. As far as we can tell, he's a pretty nice guy. Why WOULD anyone be afraid of him if he's the friendly sort?

As for people being scared of Icarium, they're only scared of them because they know what he's capable of. And as far as I can recall, the only ones to show fear of him were a few D'ivers/Soletaken and QB. QB had VERY good reason to be afraid at that point (he just landed slap bang in front of a raging mad-jhag after all) and the D'ivers all knew him from ages past.

[L'oric]

On the QB vs Icarium lines. I would love to see QB learn how to fight Icarium from what the Eres'al did. Do not add fuel to the flame simply try to calm him down with mockra/ waves of peace whatever it was she did to em from the Beast Hold or wherever.

Icarium is feared because he kills indiscrimately ie once he starts he does not stop until everyone is dead. The Soletaken and D'ivers who meet him are afraid because they know either the arrows will kill them or his sword will and they would probably want the arrows. I know I would.

If I had a choice to die versus Icarium or Rake I would pick Rake. Why? Much like Cowl I would choose imprisonment over irrevocable death. Now that even death is dead...hahah...everyone that dies will be at the whim of the gods that they serve and if they do not serve any then a miasma of the abyss is not my ideal circumstance for eternity...I would totally try to become a wickan. Imprisonment carries the possibility of parole/release. Give me that.

Now I get to write it again. Rake is Dead...DEAD! There will be no more Dragnipur souls (unless someone steals the sword or Brood unmade/destroyed it). There will be no more Rake unless Mother Dark summons him back and he coalesces together from his scattered remains. So any and all Rake discussions are part and set in the past. More like moot until SE or ICE bring him back just for giggles in the First page of Dust of Dreams..Last page of Crippled God or Stoneweilder...or somewhere else. Less prequels more sequels please.

Sincerely
L'oric

[Grief]

Actually from what we've seen Hood is easier to escape than dragnipur.
Hood has been escaped a lot, dragnipur only a couple of times, the hounds and at the end.

Oh, and Rake being dead, by his own choice, does not mean in any way that he is somehow a worse swordsman.

Rake is unlikely to come back. If he did, it would ruin an epic part of the books for me. Kinda like Iktovians return lessened his death for me.

However, there are small pieces that could be used to argue his return. Firstly, the part about his entwinement with MD. Secondly his scattering of soul into KG, which could lead to MD. That would mean it would have to join back togother. The bloody eye could have a part to play. Etc.

I don't want him to come back.

That doesn't somehow make him a worse swordsman.

Rake=Best swordsman in the series.

Icarium/Dassem/Tool/Mok/Seguleh First/Draconus/Osserc=Best swordsmen still alive.

Since it is a thread regarding the hypothetical best fighter, it is irrelevant if they still live or not.

[L'oric]

Grief, on Feb 13 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

Since it is a thread regarding the hypothetical best fighter, it is irrelevant if they still live or not.

I have no idea why it bothers me so. Let me set a non Rake analogy with another 4 letter swordsmen that is dead and starts with an R.

Rell would be on par with Skinner if they were ever to meet. Rell is dead and so they are never going to meet. Rell is dead there is no reason to fear him. Rell is dead he is never going back to Seguleh to reclaim a spot in the Agatii. Etc. All conjecture of what he would have done/could one day do seems to be just that...wishful thinking.

Unless rewritten into the story Rell Was a great fighter. Not is. Rake was the best swordfighter most likely...probably (my dassem fanboy can't go beyond that sorry.)

I even want to say that you hit the nail on the head Grief with

Quote

Rake=Best swordsman in the series.

I just wish there was a past tense or had or something in it. What is 'had' past tense plu perfect or something? In short give me what he has done not what he will do...
to paraphrase.
"we will speak of the past together for that is all you have left"

Sincerely,
L'oric

[BeLeG]

Onos, on Feb 13 2009, 08:16 PM, said:

Toc, on Feb 12 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

Sure, there might be other characters who can do what Brys did, but of that we can only speculate. I'm saying Brys is the most skilled swordsman at the moment because we've seen (fair enough, read..) what he can do.

If you say the Seguleh can do what he did, well then, prove it.

I guess the bottom line is how you choose to view the word skill, and what you choose to base it on.


But for the sake of speculation, Dessimbelackis is the best swordsman!

I have quotes of this earlier in the thread. What Brys did isnt that spectacular. At one point he spears Rhulads knee cap... come on... i could do that. Then most of the surgical stuff is done once Rhulad is down. Anyone who knows something of anatomy could do it. Based on what we know Brys wont be at the top of this list.

anyone who knows anatomy could slice most tendons with a SWORD without opening major blood vessels?And as fast as Brys did?
Are you serious????????

[Silencer]

@L'oric - a lot of what we discuss is hypothetical. Even things like the Seguleh First, Rell, Kallor, Dassem, Skinner, Iron Bars....we are all just speculating on what they could do in a certain situation. Most of it is guesswork. So how is suggesting that Rake was the best swordsman any different? The fact that he is dead doesn't show he couldn't have defeated the others if he had met them. Same in the way it was suggested that Dassem could have defeated Icarium - it hasn't happened, but it still has to be taken into account.

@BeLeG - I have to agree with you there. He did, literally, perform surgery on Rhulad. With a sword. Mind you, Rake, Dassem, and Karsa all use gigantic swords. Kind of makes it harder to do what Brys did.

That being said, the whole idea of basing this entirely on skill is pointless. Strength, speed, endurance...it's all part of it. It's like asking who is the best mage based on number of warrens, or knowledge - the power and skill of the wielder still come into it, in all circumstances. The fact is, if you take Brys, and put him up against Rake, he couldn't do what he did to Rhulad - because Rake is both far more skilled than Rhulad AND is stronger, faster, etc. Strength alone doesn't make someone a good swordfighter, but in a one-on-one it CAN prove the difference.

[muco]

blackzoid, on Feb 13 2009, 09:46 PM, said:

eh? Ya, it does mean that you would consider him the best. What else could that mean?

Thats basically saying that Karsa is impervious to all previous limits of ability. A huge cop-out as far as I am concerned. What about Silcas Ruin who took apart at least 3 Toblakai in a matter of seconds? Do we just disregard that fact and say that Karsa will find a way? Even though it was the same race? And they were Toblakai gods who should have been at least as powerful as Karsa.

He talks to Karsa like a kindred soul. Thats great, but doesn't mean anything as far a fighting ability goes. Is Karsa goingto lead his army to fight Ascendents or just mortals? What about Malazan's and their cussers? What does he do then? Shout "WITNESS" and then is blown up by a cusser.

No... I don't consider Karsa as best. Neither would I pick Dassem, Rake or the 1st as the best over the others. Is it necessary for me pick number uno? I can pick a whole bunch of them and put them in one group and declare..on their day they can defeat the others in that group.

My whole argument in this is when people, with their own classification of what the best swordsman is, point at Karsa saying he only wins on his brute strength and has not that much skill...does not sound that logical.

And yes I do agree to implying that 'Karsa is impervious to all previous limits of abiity'. His whole existance is testmant to that statement. Thats the one reason I give him a chance against Dassem, Rake or the 1st. Otherwise I wouldn't have. Think on this...Hood sends a messenger to Karsa, its contents well known to all of us. Lets take a deep breath and think on why Karsa, why not Seguleh 1st, 2nd or Mok or Bry's or some of the other guys we have been discussing.

And regarding how Karsa would fight Malazans with their cussers, I wouldn't know and its implied in the series that Karsa is a lot smarter than the general perception going around about him. And the comments are not somethign I made, I am just quoting what Dassem says to Samar dev in TTH.

And as far as Dassem talking to Karsa like a kindered soul, I do agree and I woud say Karsa does reciprocate the feelings. They hit it off and it was great and all. But make no mistake, neither Dassem not Karsa wanted to cross each other. And that implied, they judged each other and were happy not to cross each other. Hell man, how many guys in Malazan series walked into the path of Hounds of Shadow itching for a fight!!

This post has been edited by muco: 14 February 2009 - 12:24 PM

[Grief]

Ofc Hood picked karsa:

He let the second go, they probably had some sort of deal. He could no longer command him.
Karsa has some magical resistance. This is gonna help a LOT against a god, because a lot of gods would just blast a swordsman, however good, away with magic. Thats why not Brys, Mok, etc.
Dassem, well, i doubt he'd do anything Hood asked.
The only other swordsmen at the level we've been discussing who wouldn't get completely owned by magic are Rake and Icarium. Rake was planning on dying, hood knows this, so its pointless asking, cause he's dead. Icarium isn't someone you want to risk tossing into a heated battle.

Yes, Rake is dead. Doesn't matter, because its a best swordsman discussion.
Had Rake and Karsa fought, Rake would win.
Its no different from saying "If Icarium and Karsa fight, Icarium would win"

[Xardean]

Isn't it all relative though? How can we really say whose the better swordsmen? Karsa took Icarium out the first time they met. But apparently Ucarium is so much better than him. But in that instance would it have mattered? Icarium would have been dead, nd of no trick that wasn't swordsmanship.

[Trull's son]

Why is Brys even considered in the top 5? he shouldnt be, just reread MT. Theres his counterpart, the prince's swordsman guy, who is described as being not quite as good as brys. Brys mentions that the guy is very good, and almost AS good. And if memory serves, that guy was slaughtered. Sure Brys took Rhulad apart, but at the cost of a finger. the fact was that although brys was good, he couldnt have been "otherworldly good" I seriously doubt Iron Bars would have been as impressed in Letheras.

[blackzoid]

muco, on Feb 14 2009, 12:17 PM, said:

blackzoid, on Feb 13 2009, 09:46 PM, said:

eh? Ya, it does mean that you would consider him the best. What else could that mean?

Thats basically saying that Karsa is impervious to all previous limits of ability. A huge cop-out as far as I am concerned. What about Silcas Ruin who took apart at least 3 Toblakai in a matter of seconds? Do we just disregard that fact and say that Karsa will find a way? Even though it was the same race? And they were Toblakai gods who should have been at least as powerful as Karsa.

He talks to Karsa like a kindred soul. Thats great, but doesn't mean anything as far a fighting ability goes. Is Karsa goingto lead his army to fight Ascendents or just mortals? What about Malazan's and their cussers? What does he do then? Shout "WITNESS" and then is blown up by a cusser.

No... I don't consider Karsa as best. Neither would I pick Dassem, Rake or the 1st as the best over the others. Is it necessary for me pick number uno? I can pick a whole bunch of them and put them in one group and declare..on their day they can defeat the others in that group.

My whole argument in this is when people, with their own classification of what the best swordsman is, point at Karsa saying he only wins on his brute strength and has not that much skill...does not sound that logical.

And yes I do agree to implying that 'Karsa is impervious to all previous limits of abiity'. His whole existance is testmant to that statement. Thats the one reason I give him a chance against Dassem, Rake or the 1st. Otherwise I wouldn't have. Think on this...Hood sends a messenger to Karsa, its contents well known to all of us. Lets take a deep breath and think on why Karsa, why not Seguleh 1st, 2nd or Mok or Bry's or some of the other guys we have been discussing.

And regarding how Karsa would fight Malazans with their cussers, I wouldn't know and its implied in the series that Karsa is a lot smarter than the general perception going around about him. And the comments are not somethign I made, I am just quoting what Dassem says to Samar dev in TTH.

And as far as Dassem talking to Karsa like a kindered soul, I do agree and I woud say Karsa does reciprocate the feelings. They hit it off and it was great and all. But make no mistake, neither Dassem not Karsa wanted to cross each other. And that implied, they judged each other and were happy not to cross each other. Hell man, how many guys in Malazan series walked into the path of Hounds of Shadow itching for a fight!!

"My whole argument in this is when people, with their own classification of what the best swordsman is, point at Karsa saying he only wins on his brute strength and has not that much skill...does not sound that logical."

But it is logical, his fights against Rhulad and Icarium are the most skillful only fights thats being in. Neither of those fights, although good, were the most impressive and amazing sword fights that we have seen in the series.
Against the Segulah 11th, he knocked her off-balance by thumping the ground and he picked her up, against the KCCM and the Deragoth he had a brawl. He is a barbarian that is supposed to break the sterotype, by using his brain. He is not the most skilled swordsman, which is the TITLE OF THE THREAD remember?
He has yet to have a sword fight at amazing speed, like Tool/Mok, Dassem/Rake, Trull/Icarium, Trull/Silcas Ruin.

Also by pure logic we should state that Karsa = Teblor.
Teblor = Toblaki
Silchas Ruin > 3 Toblaki
=> Silchas Ruin > Karsa
Correct?
What could be more logical then that?


"Hood sends a messenger to Karsa, its contents well known to all of us. Lets take a deep breath and think on why Karsa, why not Seguleh 1st, 2nd or Mok or Bry's or some of the other guys we have been discussing."

This is utterly irreleant to the argument for 2 reasons.
1: Maybe Hood doesn't want the God killed in a sword fight? Maybe he wants Karsa to try just punching the god to death. Maybe he wants a magical resistant being, which is what Karsa is.
2: How do we know that Hood has NOT sent any messangers to them. You have no proof of this and you are assuming that he hasn't.


You are stating ifs, buts and irrelevant asides about Karsa and his reputation among Ascendents/Gods. You are also relying pretty heavily on Karsa's supposed role to break all rules established for characters in the Malazan universe.
I am relying on sword fighting facts from the books. Facts also stated by the character Karsa himself.

Once again, the thread is about the most skilled swordsman. We have to take what we have read and use it as proof. Nothing else.

I leave it to you sir, to counterpoint with facts showing that Karsa has won any sword fight with a top swordsman using skill only. I'm quite confident that there are no examples from the books that you can draw on.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 14 February 2009 - 07:53 PM