[Silencer]

Yes. Due to the increased distance between his grip and the impact of Dassem's blade, there was more force pushing the blade - thus Dragnipur smacking into Rake's head. How, exactly, is timing this with Dassem's double-handed swing, in the middle of the single highest-speed fight we've seen, to cause the effect he wanted unskillful?

[Xardean]

Well I don't really understand why we are still debating Rake v Dassem.... Rake may well be the better swordsmen, but Dassem has the singular will needed to wield Vengeance. Which if im not wrong, makes him unstoppable, unbeatable, invincible. When it comes to sword fighting yes? So I don't see how Rake could have ever won. He made Vengeance, he knew what it was capable of, especially in Dassems hands. Thus he knew he was going to die, and he threw the fight. As for why they had to fight, it doesn't make much sense to me. But im sure it will all be explained in DoD.

[Viandaran]

Xardean, on Feb 10 2009, 09:49 AM, said:

Well I don't really understand why we are still debating Rake v Dassem.... Rake may well be the better swordsmen, but Dassem has the singular will needed to wield Vengeance. Which if im not wrong, makes him unstoppable, unbeatable, invincible. When it comes to sword fighting yes? So I don't see how Rake could have ever won. He made Vengeance, he knew what it was capable of, especially in Dassems hands. Thus he knew he was going to die, and he threw the fight. As for why they had to fight, it doesn't make much sense to me. But im sure it will all be explained in DoD.

good lord. are you kidding me?

i really hope you are just trolling...

[L'oric]

Viandaran, on Feb 10 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

Xardean, on Feb 10 2009, 09:49 AM, said:

Well I don't really understand why we are still debating Rake v Dassem.... Rake may well be the better swordsmen, but Dassem has the singular will needed to wield Vengeance. Which if im not wrong, makes him unstoppable, unbeatable, invincible. When it comes to sword fighting yes? So I don't see how Rake could have ever won. He made Vengeance, he knew what it was capable of, especially in Dassems hands. Thus he knew he was going to die, and he threw the fight. As for why they had to fight, it doesn't make much sense to me. But im sure it will all be explained in DoD.

good lord. are you kidding me?

i really hope you are just trolling...

I got to say I agree with most of this even if he is just stopping in to snipe. Right to the point where Rake knew he was going to die by Dassem's hand. It seems obvious that he wanted and indeed had to die by Dragnipur else Mother Dark would never have manifested.

I must say having just read RotCG that as the Lord of Tragedy which he emraces towards the end of the book Dassem is even more impressive. I am still not getting his only human facade throughout TTH but I am guessing it was needed. I think the book shows how many detours he is willing to take and added to the detours in TTH his "Vengeance" against Hood while pure and irrevocable is delayed by his own actions again and again. Usually to save others in a Hulk TV series kind of way.

Sincerely,
L'oric
RotCG spoiler just in case

Spoiler

ps Rell should have been up in the Seguleh mix of best. "Thats, that as they say."

This post has been edited by L'oric: 10 February 2009 - 04:10 PM

[Viandaran]

L'oric, on Feb 10 2009, 11:07 AM, said:

Viandaran, on Feb 10 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

Xardean, on Feb 10 2009, 09:49 AM, said:

Well I don't really understand why we are still debating Rake v Dassem.... Rake may well be the better swordsmen, but Dassem has the singular will needed to wield Vengeance. Which if im not wrong, makes him unstoppable, unbeatable, invincible. When it comes to sword fighting yes? So I don't see how Rake could have ever won. He made Vengeance, he knew what it was capable of, especially in Dassems hands. Thus he knew he was going to die, and he threw the fight. As for why they had to fight, it doesn't make much sense to me. But im sure it will all be explained in DoD.

good lord. are you kidding me?

i really hope you are just trolling...

I got to say I agree with most of this even if he is just stopping in to snipe. Right to the point where Rake knew he was going to die by Dassem's hand. It seems obvious that he wanted and indeed had to die by Dragnipur else Mother Dark would never have manifested.

I must say having just read RotCG that as the Lord of Tragedy which he emraces towards the end of the book Dassem is even more impressive. I am still not getting his only human facade throughout TTH but I am guessing it was needed. I think the book shows how many detours he is willing to take and added to the detours in TTH his "Vengeance" against Hood while pure and irrevocable is delayed by his own actions again and again. Usually to save others in a Hulk TV series kind of way.

Sincerely,
L'oric
RotCG spoiler just in case

Spoiler

ps Rell should have been up in the Seguleh mix of best. "Thats, that as they say."

He knows that once he settles with Hood he's got nothing left so his "detours" allow him to delay (at least subconsciously) that day.

"Which if im not wrong, makes him unstoppable, unbeatable, invincible."
There are quite a few MBOTF characters that seem to be this way... until they meet the being that makes them stoppable, beatable, and "vincible".

[blackzoid]

Xardean, on Feb 10 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

Well I don't really understand why we are still debating Rake v Dassem.... Rake may well be the better swordsmen, but Dassem has the singular will needed to wield Vengeance. Which if im not wrong, makes him unstoppable, unbeatable, invincible. When it comes to sword fighting yes? So I don't see how Rake could have ever won. He made Vengeance, he knew what it was capable of, especially in Dassems hands. Thus he knew he was going to die, and he threw the fight. As for why they had to fight, it doesn't make much sense to me. But im sure it will all be explained in DoD.

No Limits Fallacy.
Often used in "Versus" debates.

Lets just agree that they are the top 2 fighters that we have seen.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 10 February 2009 - 04:57 PM

[Benji]

Before their fight, I always thought Karsa was best, mostly because of how he handled that Seguleh in RG. After his comments on the Rake/Dassem battle though, I'm starting to think he's third behind those two. I say that Rake comes up top. Why? He can lift Dragnipur after it becomes weighted down with Hood's army and STILL fight Dassem long enough to manipulate the battle.

[Burned Tear]

just my 2 cents:

Its stated in MoI that rake stops after killing the seventh seguleh by warren cuz he is "exhausted."
so...the higher seguleh must be much better yes? Karsa is no where near Rake/Dassem as he conveys in TTH and the seguleh he sparred with was only like ranked 1200 so nowhere near Mok's level. Also Mok doesnt just defeat Tool..he messes him right up, then walks through K'Chain Che'Malle.

Personally i dont respect the Crimson Guard that much, they get their power from the Vow. If you were to count people's power, then Icarium would be 1st without a doubt. But we're not are we? So it goes: Rake, Dassem, Seguleh 1-7 IMO.

[Grief]

Well, its interesting how you rank Icarium, as opposed to people like Gothos, Rake, Draconus, Brood etc, who are more powerful imo, in terms of power, but that is not what we're here to discuss.

I believe the seguleh Karsa fought was the 11th though?

[L'oric]

Burned Tear, on Feb 10 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

just my 2 cents:

Its stated in MoI that rake stops after killing the seventh seguleh by warren cuz he is "exhausted."
so...the higher seguleh must be much better yes? Karsa is no where near Rake/Dassem as he conveys in TTH and the seguleh he sparred with was only like ranked 1200 so nowhere near Mok's level. Also Mok doesnt just defeat Tool..he messes him right up, then walks through K'Chain Che'Malle.

Personally i dont respect the Crimson Guard that much, they get their power from the Vow. If you were to count people's power, then Icarium would be 1st without a doubt. But we're not are we? So it goes: Rake, Dassem, Seguleh 1-7 IMO.

I think this scene was quoted earlier. I thought it was said that he retreated into his warren to slow his beating heart or something. Debate is still going on whether that meant he (Rake) was unable to go on or unwilling to go on.

Karsa beats the 11th but it is difficult to know how a Seguleh Dueling master would treat the "sparring match." Clearly they do not spar often, did the 11th consider it a duel? If defeated is she going back to Seguleh to enroll Karsa amongst the top 1000 agatii?

Tool versus Mok is a good place on where Mok is but Tool was exhauted for months with the pool of the Tellan Warren by Silverfox. Mok is better but not that much better.

Icarium can be defeated...maybe not killed but defeated. He does get knocked out quite often.

RotCG spoiler

Spoiler

Iron Bars and the Avowed are very tough to kill and would take a wound that would kill a normal person and kill most any Seguleh they would be good enough to strike. Iron Bars made it to the agatii we just do not know where since he doesnt ask and they do not tell him. (As I thought they should have) the 20th or so thought Iron Bars was worth challenging so that should tell you enough of what a second best Avowed can do.

This post has been edited by L'oric: 10 February 2009 - 08:28 PM

[Seguleh 1st]

and, tool is an undead, which is why he does not care about taking blows when he fights, and he has been virtually chopped up by pannions forces. this might to a certain degree be a handicap of which tool isnt fully aware himself, since he doesnt feel it. further it is the old thing with undead being slower but able to take lethal wounds, which helps you in a battle but not in a duel, where it is a disadvantage. still, i place mok above tool even in his flesh-and-blood form. i would guess tool has to completely adapt his fighting style now he is alive again, cause he used to simply take some blows ignoring them which is not possible any more.

Seg1st, drawing breath

[Benji]

Karsa being amongst the Agatii was not the point I was trying to make. The point is that he defeated a highly ranked Seguleh. Solo. With great ease.

As for Tool and Mok... Tool was exhausted from the pull of Silverfox as said above, he had spent ages hacking through K'chain Che'malle to rescue Toc. I believe that Mok, at that point, was described as being quite healthy. Not exactly a fair fight and Tool did manage to hold his own for a short while. If they were both at full capacity and Tool was still undead? I would like to think that Tool would win.

Rake went to Seguleh Island. He fought AT LEAST twenty seguleh. We know twenty is the minimum from the amount mentioned in the battle against chaos, but there could have quite easily been more. The strongest that he beat was the seventh. After fighting 20+ beings that spend their entire life training in combat, I would have thought that anyone would be exhausted (except maybe Icarium in his rage, but that's a different matter). Note that the description given to us by Envy stated that he retreated to still his beating heart or something. Rake isn't stupid. He knew he could keep fighting, but he also knew that there was little point. As far as he was concerned, this tribe of warriors had attacked him without provocation. Rake was probably thinking "Well, I've given Dragnipur it's supper, the rest of these guys will keep the guys amused for some time." So he went to bring his fellow Tiste Andii to take down the civilisation that had assaulted him. When he returned he got to reading, discovered what he had done wrong and yadda yadda yadda.

Yeah, little basis in fact for my above point, but it still makes sense if you think about Rake and why he does what he does.

And just to get slightly more back on topic: Rake is the most skilled swordsman. That is, he has the most skill with his weapon. Karsa has numerous abilities up his sleeves (immunity to magic, pocket warren, immense strength, height etc.) to help him in combat. Icarium's skill in battle is, as far as we know, reliant on his rage. Dassem is pure skill as opposed to Karsa and Icarium, but Rake would win purely because he's had untold millenia to hone his skills. Dassem has had almost a century.

[L'oric]

Quote

Karsa being amongst the Agatii was not the point I was trying to make. The point is that he defeated a highly ranked Seguleh. Solo. With great ease.-Benji

Yes he did but RotCG spoiler below:

Spoiler

We find as told by Rell that the fights/duels between highly ranked or Agatii capable fighters are often done on technique alone. Would they award Karsa the win in such a duel event/circumstance...granted though it being extremely highly never to happen. On a fight to the death Karsa would be a much harder opponent to beat.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[Benji]

I would say that they would have. Rake got to seventh without making it all official.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Karsa vs 11th doesn't show Karsa's swordskill, just that he's strong enough to make someone llose their balance by pounding the ground with his foot.
As I've already said I don't think Karsa is that great swordman. He's a great fighter because he's absurdly strong and resistant

[Aptorian]

Karsa went through an army of Edur invaders in BH, killing dozens with out a single one touching him. Yes, his strength and size gave him an edge, but not a single spear or sword managed to touch him besides the fact that he's twice the size and bulk of a human being and he just barrolled straight into them.

Karsa is fast as hell and extremely skilled in any fighting circumstance. Sort of like how you see iron Bars just dismantling Rhulad and his retinue with no real effort.

Karsa would mess you up if you weren't a Dassem, Rake, high ranking seguleh level of awesome.

[BeLeG]

Still waiting for Brys to show his full potential
I have this feeling that he can be the best

[Grief]

Brys, well, im not sure we've seen enough.
His thing with Rhulad was awesome, but the problems are:

Trull is disbelieving, but yet, he's not a swordsman. Rhulads good, but I reckon mok and a few other seguleh could match this, as well as Dassem/Rake.

Brys seems awesome though, and we haven't seen his full potential I don't think, so i'd like to see him fight Dassem, Mok, etc.

[Trull's son]

I would like to add something on to the seguleh bit, and how people seem to believe that there is a great gap between the skill levels of top 20 segleh. It was mentioned that Mok was much better than the 11th, but based on what exactly? i don't recall seeing a formal seguleh duel, but Rell describes that the higher ranking seguleh duels can be won by technique, he even mentions that some seguleh have lost because they failed to perform a certain technique at the proper time. This implies that there is a skill "asymptote" if i may (i apologize for the reference to functions). the seguleh can get closer and closer to becoming the best (doomed to never achieve that title), and those that are of a higher rank will be extremely close to each other's level of skill (consider Rell). The best of their people (the top 20 or so) should be very similar when one considers skill.
The entire idea of the duels based on technique was messed for me when i was reminded of Rake's whole "killing the seventh" thing. hopefully it doesnt mean that the duels judged on skill are for those ranked higher than seventh, because my whole reply would be useless. but then it would also mean Rell was among those considered to be worthy of a judged duel, so he would have to be ranked among the top 6. Odd this little revelation....

[Grief]

I think if one person kills the other in a fair fight, judging on skill doesn't come into it.