[Grief]

Gardens of the Moon page 471 said:

All seven had now arrayed themselves before them, but they shifted restlessly, warily eyeing the newcomer.

Gardens of the Moon page 472 said:

The Hounds attacked faster than anything Paran could have imagined.

Gardens of the Moon page 472 said:

He squeezed his eyes shut against the staggering pain, then forced them open again to see that the fight was over.

Gardens of the Moon page 472 said:

Rood yelped and the others backed away.

Gardens of the Moon page 472 said:

"You just killed two Hounds of Shadow."
"The others withdrew."

[Viandaran]

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

I am not basing who I think was better on who one because Rake intentionally lost by taking a weak guard so he could go into Dragnipur. I am showing that he did not do anything special with reguards to swordsmanship.

All the Seguleh debate is great, but this last part between Rake and Dassem I just can't understand - the part of [Rake did] "not do anything special in regards to swordsmanship". That's just crazy!

They were fighting at a pace that bystanders couldn't even see yet Rake EXACTLY anticipated Dassem's moves such that he orchestrated precisely how he wanted to die, with one quick blast into his dome, with his sword, against someone as AMAZINGLY good as Dassem.

That's not just "taking a weak guard". That is tactically making moves to lead Dassem, one of the best swordsmen EVER, into doing just what you want. To me, that is definitely "doing something special with regards to swordsmanship".

And if you can set Dassem up that way to kill YOU, it would probably have been even easier to put Dassem into Dragnipur if that were the intent.

[Grief]

Oh, and if he just wanted Dassem into dragnipur, he could magically immobilize him to get his way, no problem.
Both of them wanted to get into dragnipur.
That was both of their aims.
The winner is the one who ends up in dragnipur, since thats what they both aimed for.
Therefore, Rake won.
Not only that, but he had the harder job, considering it was his own sword he was using.

Oh, and get your quotes right, that was, I believe, sacase

[Viandaran]

Grief, on Feb 8 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

Oh, and if he just wanted Dassem into dragnipur, he could magically immobilize him to get his way, no problem.
Both of them wanted to get into dragnipur.
That was both of their aims.
The winner is the one who ends up in dragnipur, since thats what they both aimed for.
Therefore, Rake won.
Not only that, but he had the harder job, considering it was his own sword he was using.

Oh, and get your quotes right, that was, I believe, sacase

HA! Sorry! New levels of incompetence! I have no idea how I accomplished that mis-quote.

[L'oric]

Quote

All the Seguleh debate is great, but this last part between Rake and Dassem I just can't understand - the part of [Rake did] "not do anything special in regards to swordsmanship". That's just crazy!

They were fighting at a pace that bystanders couldn't even see yet Rake EXACTLY anticipated Dassem's moves such that he orchestrated precisely how he wanted to die, with one quick blast into his dome, with his sword, against someone as AMAZINGLY good as Dassem.

That's not just "taking a weak guard". That is tactically making moves to lead Dassem, one of the best swordsmen EVER, into doing just what you want. To me, that is definitely "doing something special with regards to swordsmanship".

And if you can set Dassem up that way to kill YOU, it would probably have been even easier to put Dassem into Dragnipur if that were the intent.

-Viandaran

I do not see where Rake manipulated anything. I see where he cheats and lets himself gets killed. Awesome as it is I do not see where it says he was the better swordsmen. We do not know since we the reader were "cheated" as well.

Quote

Both of them wanted to get into dragnipur.
That was both of their aims.-Grief

So Dassem was tryign to kill himself and Rake refused to kill him? I can not see Dassem wanting to go into the sword. Does he know Hood is in there? I do not think so.

Sincerely,
L'oric

ps Deads dead Dassem is greatest living swordsman. Icarium somewhere close by. No other need apply.

[Viandaran]

Grief, on Feb 8 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

Oh, and if he just wanted Dassem into dragnipur, he could magically immobilize him to get his way, no problem.
Both of them wanted to get into dragnipur.
That was both of their aims.
The winner is the one who ends up in dragnipur, since thats what they both aimed for.
Therefore, Rake won.
Not only that, but he had the harder job, considering it was his own sword he was using.

Oh, and get your quotes right, that was, I believe, sacase

QUESTION: Did Dassem know that Hood was in Dragnipur when he battled Rake? This quote makes me think not:
pg. 855, TTH, just before the fight.
- speaking to Rake: "Traveller shook his head. 'Where is he? he demanded. 'I can feel - he's close. Where is he?
Not Cotillion. A different 'he' this time. The one Traveller seeks. The one he has ever sought.
'Yes, ' said Rake, 'Close.'"

Why ask that if you know Hood's in Dragnipur? If Cotillion had told Traveller this fact, he wouldn't have asked or wondered. It seems like Cotillion must have told Traveller that Rake would stand between he and Hood ["...he said you would not yield..."], but not that Hood was already in the sword. Rake says, "If you so want Hood, come and get him." but I don't think that's enough to TELL Dassem that Hood's in the blade.

So, I'm not sure that Dassem wanted to get killed by Dragnipur. He just knew he had to get past Rake (even though he didn't want to) to get to Hood.

Also, if Dassem wanted Hood so badly, and knew that he was in the sword, all he had to do was cut himself with Dragnipur while it was embedded in Rake's face (if the theory that a single cut by Dragnipur will pull you in is correct). Then again, maybe Rake wanted the sword embedded so that Dassem wouldn't be able to easily mortally wound himself (if that's what it would take on the other hand to get pulled into Dragnipur) and follow into the sword realm.

Do you think he knew?

[Viandaran]

L'oric, on Feb 8 2009, 06:43 PM, said:

Quote

All the Seguleh debate is great, but this last part between Rake and Dassem I just can't understand - the part of [Rake did] "not do anything special in regards to swordsmanship". That's just crazy!

They were fighting at a pace that bystanders couldn't even see yet Rake EXACTLY anticipated Dassem's moves such that he orchestrated precisely how he wanted to die, with one quick blast into his dome, with his sword, against someone as AMAZINGLY good as Dassem.

That's not just "taking a weak guard". That is tactically making moves to lead Dassem, one of the best swordsmen EVER, into doing just what you want. To me, that is definitely "doing something special with regards to swordsmanship".

And if you can set Dassem up that way to kill YOU, it would probably have been even easier to put Dassem into Dragnipur if that were the intent.

-Viandaran

I do not see where Rake manipulated anything. I see where he cheats and lets himself gets killed. Awesome as it is I do not see where it says he was the better swordsmen. We do not know since we the reader were "cheated" as well.

Well, then don't call it "manipulated". Whatever he did, he got exactly the outcome he wanted. And just because Karsa says, "Cheated" doesn't make it cheating. Rake needed the fight to end in a very specific way and he succeeded. Obviously you and many others don't agree, but I think forcing that fight to end just the way you need against someone of Dassem's caliber makes you the better swordsman. I don't feel at all cheated as a reader. SE doesn't seem inclined to write who "was the better swordsman" (or anything else) so this will have to be an "agree to disagree" situation. Each reader will interpret as they see fit.

Quote

Both of them wanted to get into dragnipur.
That was both of their aims.-Grief

So Dassem was tryign to kill himself and Rake refused to kill him? I can not see Dassem wanting to go into the sword. Does he know Hood is in there? I do not think so.

Good point - you beat me to it.

Sincerely,
L'oric

ps Deads dead Dassem is greatest living swordsman. Icarium somewhere close by. No other need apply.

[Grief]

Dassem had to know Hood was in the sword.
Ok, assume he doesn't.
Dassems aim is to get Hood. To do so, he has to get past Rake.
Rake dies. What does Dassem do?
Does he go looking for Hood? Does he hell, he starts crying.
This is the person whose ONE obession for the last 10-20 years has been to find Hood.
He fights Rake to get past him and find Hood.
Soon as the fights over, he doesn't even LOOK for Hood.
At some point, he knew that Hood wasn't nearby.

Take Karsa/Samar Dev after the fight:

Toll the Hounds page 857 said:

Wrong. It was wrong.
"I saw-I saw-"
"You saw true," he said, baring his teeth, his gazefixed upon that fallen body.
"As did Traveller, and see what it has done to him."

It is fairly obvious Rake manipulated the fight into his losing.
He did not want to win.
So he lost. Therefore he achieved his aims of saving the gate etc. Therefore he won.

Rake achieved all his aims. He saved the gate, reconciled the Andii.

Dassem achieved none of his. He didn't get Hood. He was forced to kill someone he respected.

So, how can you argue that Dassem wins?

Rake got everything he wanted from the fight.
Dassem got nothing he wanted from the fight.

Rake manipulated the fight, so that he would get what he wanted.

Karsa/Samar Devs comments make it obvious that Rake deliberately lost.
Even traveller knew it. And Shadowthrone/Cotillions later comments show that Dassem would hate them for their part in the manipulation(essentially, him being there in the first place).
They also talk about how if they had explained, Dassem would have felt better.
Had they explained that it was Rakes intention to die all along. Except he refused to listen.

[sacase]

Viandaran, on Feb 8 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

I am not basing who I think was better on who one because Rake intentionally lost by taking a weak guard so he could go into Dragnipur. I am showing that he did not do anything special with reguards to swordsmanship.

All the Seguleh debate is great, but this last part between Rake and Dassem I just can't understand - the part of [Rake did] "not do anything special in regards to swordsmanship". That's just crazy!

They were fighting at a pace that bystanders couldn't even see yet Rake EXACTLY anticipated Dassem's moves such that he orchestrated precisely how he wanted to die, with one quick blast into his dome, with his sword, against someone as AMAZINGLY good as Dassem.

That's not just "taking a weak guard". That is tactically making moves to lead Dassem, one of the best swordsmen EVER, into doing just what you want. To me, that is definitely "doing something special with regards to swordsmanship".

And if you can set Dassem up that way to kill YOU, it would probably have been even easier to put Dassem into Dragnipur if that were the intent.

There was a pause in the fighting where Rake took the same stance he initially started with, except that he raised the sword slightly higher than before. I think this is the clue that he took the weak guard. By setting his guard like this he knew that he would not be able to block the incoming blow. I don't see that as any special skill. Any swordsman would be able to do this, especially swordsmen who are as skilled as any of the ones we have been talking about.

[sacase]

Grief, on Feb 8 2009, 02:04 PM, said:

Rake defeats the hounds far easily, and far more quickly than the second and the hounds of Light.

I thought the hounds of light pretty much own the hounds of Shadow?

Also didn't Apsalar quickly kill a bunch of houds too?

[Grief]

The book describes no pause, except after the first bit, that I recall. Quotes or it didn't happen.
The stance, as I recall, was exactly the same as he started with.
And ofc it required skill. Dassem didn't want to kill him. If dassem was better, surely he could've adjusted his own blow to avoid killing Rake.
Rake got exactly what he wished for, and Dassem got nothing.
Also, what has Dassem ever done that Rake could not?
Then ask what Rake has done that Dassem could not.

[Grief]

sacase, on Feb 9 2009, 01:09 PM, said:

Grief, on Feb 8 2009, 02:04 PM, said:

Rake defeats the hounds far easily, and far more quickly than the second and the hounds of Light.

I thought the hounds of light pretty much own the hounds of Shadow?

Also didn't Apsalar quickly kill a bunch of houds too?

Rake takes on 7 hounds.
The second takes on 2, as far as I recall.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Quote

I thought the hounds of light pretty much own the hounds of Shadow?

Also didn't Apsalar quickly kill a bunch of houds too?

No. The Hounds of Light are exactly as powerful as the Hounds. They just were 10 vs 5. It's the Deragoth that are stronger than the HoS

[Viandaran]

sacase, on Feb 9 2009, 08:07 AM, said:

Viandaran, on Feb 8 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

I am not basing who I think was better on who one because Rake intentionally lost by taking a weak guard so he could go into Dragnipur. I am showing that he did not do anything special with reguards to swordsmanship.

All the Seguleh debate is great, but this last part between Rake and Dassem I just can't understand - the part of [Rake did] "not do anything special in regards to swordsmanship". That's just crazy!

They were fighting at a pace that bystanders couldn't even see yet Rake EXACTLY anticipated Dassem's moves such that he orchestrated precisely how he wanted to die, with one quick blast into his dome, with his sword, against someone as AMAZINGLY good as Dassem.

That's not just "taking a weak guard". That is tactically making moves to lead Dassem, one of the best swordsmen EVER, into doing just what you want. To me, that is definitely "doing something special with regards to swordsmanship".

And if you can set Dassem up that way to kill YOU, it would probably have been even easier to put Dassem into Dragnipur if that were the intent.

There was a pause in the fighting where Rake took the same stance he initially started with, except that he raised the sword slightly higher than before. I think this is the clue that he took the weak guard. By setting his guard like this he knew that he would not be able to block the incoming blow. I don't see that as any special skill. Any swordsman would be able to do this, especially swordsmen who are as skilled as any of the ones we have been talking about.

i completely agree with you that Rake took a "weak guard". but it is not the taking of the weak guard that exhibits skill. you are correct again, that virtually any swordsman would be able to do this.

what takes extraordinary swordsmanship is simply surviving against Dassem up to that point, not being injured, incapacitated or killed by Grief, and knowing exactly what Dassem would do, presented with said "weak guard", such that his action would cause the fight to end precisely the way you want it to.

cheers. i'm out on this one.

[Grief]

There is absolutely no reason for Rake to kill Dassem, so he obviously wouldnt If he was going to, why not take an army of Tiste Andii, or use magic? Since Rake was never going to kill Dassem, because that was completely against his plans, the fight was only ever going to end one way, unless Dassem could force Rake to kill him. Since he failed to do that, and Rake got the end he wanted, and Dassem didn't, Rake won.

[sacase]

Grief, on Feb 9 2009, 09:57 AM, said:

There is absolutely no reason for Rake to kill Dassem, so he obviously wouldnt If he was going to, why not take an army of Tiste Andii, or use magic? Since Rake was never going to kill Dassem, because that was completely against his plans, the fight was only ever going to end one way, unless Dassem could force Rake to kill him. Since he failed to do that, and Rake got the end he wanted, and Dassem didn't, Rake won.

No one is disputing that Rake got what he wanted. What I am disputing is that fact that Rake dying becaue he intentionally took a weak guard, does not mean he showed skill.

[sacase]

Grief, on Feb 9 2009, 08:15 AM, said:

The book describes no pause, except after the first bit, that I recall. Quotes or it didn't happen.
The stance, as I recall, was exactly the same as he started with.
And ofc it required skill. Dassem didn't want to kill him. If dassem was better, surely he could've adjusted his own blow to avoid killing Rake.
Rake got exactly what he wished for, and Dassem got nothing.
Also, what has Dassem ever done that Rake could not?
Then ask what Rake has done that Dassem could not.

Don't worry, You should know I have a quote for that as well. I am not going to get that specific in an arguement without having the quote. I will put it up this evening when I get home.

Why would Dassem pull his own blow to not kill Rake? As far as Dassem was concerned they were fighting to the death. He did not know Rake's intention of going into the sword. We are talking about skill with the sword, not overall power.

[Grief]

See my earlier arguments about dassem knowing about him being in the sword etc.
I don't think, tbh, that the Dassem/Rake can be used as evidence, any more than the WJ/Kallor one can.
They were, from what we see, perfectly matched up until that point, where Rake intended to die.

I mean, if its intentional, it doesn't show Rake is better, but nor does it show Dassem is.

So that fight is fairly inconclusive, other than showing that they're both on a level far above anyone else.

However, from the other fights we know Rake has had, the time he's had to perfect his skill, and so on, I believe that Rake is better.
However, a lot of these fights are off-page, so it's hard to tell.

Also, Rake had the distinct disadvantage of fighting with a sword that and Elder God wasn't sure he'd even be able to carry.

[Silencer]

One other thing in Rake's favour - he fought against Draconus (potentially for three days) without taking a single hit. Not a scrape, a cut, a glancing blow. Nothing. Against an Elder God. The one who actually forged Dragnipur in the first place. That shows true skill. Plus somehow defeating Draconus without killing him, getting his sword, and then killing him. No. It was not because Draconus wanted to do what Rake did - we have Draconus' thoughts in TTH to show that.

And, you can't then go and say that Dassem was also able to defeat Rake without taking any cuts/scrapes/etc, because Rake didn't want to hit Dassem.

[sacase]

Grief, on Feb 9 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

See my earlier arguments about dassem knowing about him being in the sword etc.
I don't think, tbh, that the Dassem/Rake can be used as evidence, any more than the WJ/Kallor one can.
They were, from what we see, perfectly matched up until that point, where Rake intended to die.

I mean, if its intentional, it doesn't show Rake is better, but nor does it show Dassem is.

So that fight is fairly inconclusive, other than showing that they're both on a level far above anyone else.

However, from the other fights we know Rake has had, the time he's had to perfect his skill, and so on, I believe that Rake is better.
However, a lot of these fights are off-page, so it's hard to tell.

Also, Rake had the distinct disadvantage of fighting with a sword that and Elder God wasn't sure he'd even be able to carry.

Ok here is your quote, sorry it took so long.

P 767 TTH

"Rake wide legged, angling pommel high before his face with Dragnipur's point downward -as if to echo his opening stance-and higher still, and Dassem, his free hand joining the other upon his sword grip, throwing his entire weight into a crossways slash - the warrior bodily lifting as if about to take to the air and close upon Rake with an embrace, and his swing met the edge of Dragnipur at a full right angle - a single momenet shaping a perfect cruciform fashioned by the two weapons' colliding, and then the power of Dassem's blow slammed Dragnipur back-"

I was wrong about the pause in fighting, Samar Dev said she saw the death blow despite the blinding speed. I interpreted the sentence about Rake Echoing his opening stance to mean there was a pause in the fighting. So there you have it, rake used his opening stance but made it weaker by lifting it higher.