[Grief]

Why have we decided it was only twenty.
Quotes or it didn't happen.

[Silencer]

We do know Rake defeated Killy. From her own perspective, he didn't try anything until she "anticipated" his betrayal. So she basically tried to jump him and he then defeated her and threw her in an Azath.

[Grief]

Also, consider the damage the hounds of shadow do to armies.
The annihilate the one GotM prologue.
THen consider rakes fight with them.

[L'oric]

BeLeG, on Feb 7 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

Loric I am talking about Senu's and Thurule's skill here.
I just think that even un'ranked Seguleh can press the best swordsmen out there(and Tool is one of them).You cant dispatch a Seguleh in the blink of an eye.
The fact that Rake had to fight for two bells against 20 Seguleh doesnt mean that he is not the top swordsman,that's all I'm trying to say

I am trying not to disagree with anyone just trying to...not add my two cents but more to give arguments and ideas salient points of truth with my own bias thrown in as few times as possible. Kind of like a Hardball with L"oric.

I completely agreed with you about how incredible Senu and Thurule and Mok are. To think that Rake defeated the 7th (despite the Gotmism of 7 marks on the last ones mask) after defeating who know who before suggests it was an incredible feat.

The arguments being posted seem to be about how Rake could not go forward and had to "retreat." I do not think that can be proven one way or another with anythign but conjecture, and I am willing to err on the side that I have already stated...he left "by choice" I dislike Rake is the best swordsmen themese anyway cause...well he's DEAD. "my secret giggle will go unnoticed by the masses reading this post"

Quote

Not really relevant if we're comparing to Icarium.
Its not as if when he wipes out armies he's entirely normal. He's got his whole passive magic thing going on.

-Grief

I am so getting this quoting thing down finally. I agree Icarium comparison is unfair which is to my mind why he is the only one that goes wading into an army with a sword and comes out the other side with a destroyed army/city/nation/sub continent.

Any number of mages can go into an army alone and probably destroy them. Icarium just cheats.

Sincerely
L'oric

[L'oric]

Silencer, on Feb 7 2009, 03:36 PM, said:

We do know Rake defeated Killy. From her own perspective, he didn't try anything until she "anticipated" his betrayal. So she basically tried to jump him and he then defeated her and threw her in an Azath.

But How did he defeat her. Not with Dragnipur...obviously. She doesn't use a sword....if he beat her with his fists I would have to hands down turn in my Dassem and Tool Fanboy memorabilia and switch over for at least the time it takes between Dust of Dreams and the Cripple God release...eventually I would come back to my two favorites, but it would take a while.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[Grief]

Its possible he's using Grief/Vengeance at that time.

[BeLeG]

He knocked her out with the flat of his blade and he was good enough not to scratch her AT ALL

[L'oric]

BeLeG, on Feb 7 2009, 03:52 PM, said:

He knocked her out with the flat of his blade and he was good enough not to scratch her AT ALL

LOL. Strangely enough that does not make me change my fanboy status....Fist to fist or bust for me.

Sincerely
L'oric

[Silencer]

No, she could have been severely damaged. She would have healed in the Azath like everyone else.


He probably used magic. But at the same time it could have just been Grief/Vengeance.

[Grief]

Here is a quote. If you're going to count Lady Envy as reliable:

Memories of Ice 189 said:

...Chained within the sword Dragnipur, that's where. For eternity. Do you truly wish to join them Mok?"

Considering Envy is probably one of the only people who has witnessed both fighters, I would consider her a fair judge of who'd win.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

You know I think that this argument can be easily solved. Sacas has said that the Seguleh wiped an entire army. True. One of those seguleh was Senu who wasn't even ranked. So this prooves how even an unranked Seguleh can do considerable damage.

Now Rake fought against guys good enough to wipe an army only with swordskill and got only tired after fighting 20 Seguleh, the last one being in the top 10. If this doesn't seem a proof of his incredible swordskill I don't know what does

[Aptorian]

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 11:49 PM, said:

Its possible he's using Grief/Vengeance at that time.

Not just possible, absolutly certain. It would be hundreds of thousands of years before Draconus and Rake had their final battle.

[L'oric]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 8 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

You know I think that this argument can be easily solved. Sacas has said that the Seguleh wiped an entire army. True. One of those seguleh was Senu who wasn't even ranked. So this prooves how even an unranked Seguleh can do considerable damage.

Now Rake fought against guys good enough to wipe an army only with swordskill and got only tired after fighting 20 Seguleh, the last one being in the top 10. If this doesn't seem a proof of his incredible swordskill I don't know what does

I think the difference of opinion or argument if you must here is mostly with how good the Seguleh who Rake killed were and whether or not he fled from the island or if he simply stopped. A few more reasons thrown in run the spectrum between the two points of view.

In the fled view Rake was so hard pressed as to not be able to continue. We know next to nothing about the encounter other than what Envy described. We do not know if Rake defeated the 8th 9th 10th or any other extremely highly ranked Seguleh while he was there. We also do not know if he killed 20 or if he killed less.

What we do know is that Mok is incredibly skilled, and that the brothers Thurule and Senu are amazingly skilled. Has anybody ever thought that all three were brothers btw? Just because I want them to be I will say they could be because they all were of a similiar build and height.

We also know that the 2nd can hold his own and maybe even better Karsa, but that could just be hypebole on my part. He certainly put it to the hounds of Light in any case.

Because of the Seguleh mystique Rake is either not good enough to continuously duel against them or so good that he did indeed fight all those duels. A glass half empty half full scism.

Least thats my way of summarizing the debate.

L'oric

[Silencer]

Nothing I have seen from Mok, Senu, or Thurule leads to me think that Rake would not walk all over them in two seconds. Look at what Rake has done: He fought 7 Hounds of Shadow at once and didn't take a scratch, killing two. Mok fought a K'chain (undead) and didn't take a scratch...BUT he also had his two other Seguleh to back him up. 7 Hounds of Shadow would tear a K'chain to pieces.

Rake has fought Elder Gods, and won. Never lost. Do you think any Seguleh has done, or could do that? I somehow doubt it.

Rake's skill with a sword is (was) easily the best, or second best in the world that we have seen so far. Unless proven otherwise, the Seguleh First is only the equivalent or slight better of Mok, the Third. This means that he would have no chance against Rake. If you want to talk semantics, perhaps Rake would get defeated if the entire island tried to kill him in one-on-one combat one after the other. But....uh...why? Rake. Dragon. Boom.

Hence we have to take the comparison with the First as to how good Rake is. And he would walk all over the First. Otherwise it's like saying: Well if Rake and all the Tiste Andii went to the Seguleh Island, the'd win!!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't exactly make for a reasonable argument of skill, does it?

[Grief]

Rake defeats the hounds far easily, and far more quickly than the second and the hounds of Light.

[HoosierDaddy]

I'm just going to throw this out there... the Shadow Hounds thing could be a slight GotMism. My memory may be faulty but don't only a couple attack at the same time, before the rest scamper?

[Illuyankas]

The insta-death sword helps.

[HoosierDaddy]

True, but I have the feeling that the 7 attacking in a pack mentality (for analogy, Onrack and the Ay in RG), would at least wound Rake.

[Grief]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 8 2009, 07:06 PM, said:

I'm just going to throw this out there... the Shadow Hounds thing could be a slight GotMism. My memory may be faulty but don't only a couple attack at the same time, before the rest scamper?

I recall it as they all attack, the first two die, then the rest back off?

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't have the book, so I can't look it up. However, from what I remember the rest of the pack is kinda giving Rake the old stare and growl, and then the two attack out of nowhere, with no support from the others.