[Grief]

I am not making stuff up.

You are translating "to slow his heart" as "he was so exhausted he could not possibly continue, thus showing that the seguleh are better".

And if you want a Rake v Dassem thread, go read another. As I said, that argument has been gone over a lot. In fact, I beleive a few pages back there is one such argument. The conclusion came to was that Rake is better.

You are judging the fight just based on who killed the other, regardless of motivations, what they could've done if they didn't want it that way, etc.

Envy tells mok that he wouldnt even get close to Rake.
Because Rake wouldnt even bother fighting him.

Rake is compassionate in many ways. He doesn't like slaughtering people with dragnipur. See MoI, him on the hill with whiskeyjack.
Now consider how he would feel, in regards to people who ahd done nothing to deserve it, and were not his enemies.

[sacase]

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

I am not making stuff up.

You are translating "to slow his heart" as "he was so exhausted he could not possibly continue, thus showing that the seguleh are better".

And if you want a Rake v Dassem thread, go read another. As I said, that argument has been gone over a lot. In fact, I beleive a few pages back there is one such argument. The conclusion came to was that Rake is better.

You are judging the fight just based on who killed the other, regardless of motivations, what they could've done if they didn't want it that way, etc.

Envy tells mok that he wouldnt even get close to Rake.
Because Rake wouldnt even bother fighting him.

Rake is compassionate in many ways. He doesn't like slaughtering people with dragnipur. See MoI, him on the hill with whiskeyjack.
Now consider how he would feel, in regards to people who ahd done nothing to deserve it, and were not his enemies.

I quoted the text once already but I will do it again for you

MOI, P159 "Two bells. That was the full duration of Rake's visit to the island and its people. He described the ferocity of that short time, and his dismay and exhaustion which led him to withdraw into his warren if only to slow the hammering of his heart."

There is no translation when it specifically says EXAUSTION

Now I will quote P160 for you

"Dear servant, there is no-one whom the Lord of Darkness will not meet with a steady, unwavering eye. Consider that a warning."

"Then our swords shall cross, mistress. He is the Seventh. I am the Third."


Envy never tells Mok that he wouldnt even get close to Rake because Rake wouldnt even bother fighting him. That is just made up. The passage tells you Rake will fight anyone who wants to fight him.

Now please show me where she said Rake wouldn't bother fighting him.

I am not basing who I think was better on who one because Rake intentionally lost by taking a weak guard so he could go into Dragnipur. I am showing that he did not do anything special with reguards to swordsmanship.

[Grief]

The quote is in MoI.
It does exist, except I don't have the book on me atm, so cant go get it.

Oh, and Rake did make dassem kill him, because dassem did not wish to kill him, he just wanted hood.

[Aptorian]

This is an awesome discussion, I don't agree with sacase at all but he's doing such a good job I don't even know how to counter his arguments

[L'oric]

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 12:06 PM, said:

I am not making stuff up.

You are translating "to slow his heart" as "he was so exhausted he could not possibly continue, thus showing that the seguleh are better".

And if you want a Rake v Dassem thread, go read another. As I said, that argument has been gone over a lot. In fact, I beleive a few pages back there is one such argument. The conclusion came to was that Rake is better.

You are judging the fight just based on who killed the other, regardless of motivations, what they could've done if they didn't want it that way, etc.

Envy tells mok that he wouldnt even get close to Rake.
Because Rake wouldnt even bother fighting him.

Rake is compassionate in many ways. He doesn't like slaughtering people with dragnipur. See MoI, him on the hill with whiskeyjack.
Now consider how he would feel, in regards to people who ahd done nothing to deserve it, and were not his enemies.

I am also the minority on the Rake vs Dassem. What I read into the passage of the fight was simply that Rake cheated Dassem out of a real fight by killing himself with Dassem's help. I have never understood the fight and the why of it other than the need for convergence.
Dassem also clearly has significant ability to differ magical attacks against himself even before he gets a hold of Vengeance/Grief. View being untouched by the Edur warlocks in HOC while Hawl was left for dead.

All that being said I still think Rake WAS probably/most likely a tad bit better than Dassem but now he is dead so "thats that as they say.

I have also always advocated Mok, the 2nd and the 1st Seguleh to be interchangeable. Whenever SE or ICE want to disagree with me in print (not an interview laced with half truths and innuendo) then I will gladly change my opinion. Proof is in the print instead of the pudding in this case.

As to why he left the seguleh isle..."By choice, man!" Where choice is when you know that staying would carry too many ramifications you are unwilling to see come to fruition and you(Rake) saw no point in a continual battle until you were either unopposed or everyone was dead. With the way the Seguleh view death to outsiders it very well could be constant duels with less and less ability seen on the Seguleh's part as lower and lower ranked seguleh threw themselves at Rake.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[Grief]

Memories of Ice(page 1174) said:

"Oh you foolish man! He'll not see you!"

Also, the second seguleh is killed by skinner.
Skinner is defeated by dassem, and greymane says he could.
These are the people brood lists with Rake.

[Grief]

Aye.
The scene with WJ on the hill shows he is unwilling to use dragnipur.
Draconus also tells paran he is.
So there is no reason he would stay to fight the seguleh. He is there because he is curious, he has no cause to fight them.

I can think of no reason he would wish to stay and fight the seguleh, condemning them to dragnipur.

[L'oric]

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 01:40 PM, said:

Memories of Ice(page 1174) said:

"Oh you foolish man! He'll not see you!"

Also, the second seguleh is killed by skinner.
Skinner is defeated by dassem, and greymane says he could.
These are the people brood lists with Rake.

I really can't wait to read the Skinner vs 2nd Duel if it is in RotCG. I was under the impression that Skinner cheated with Cowl's help. If that is the case then the 2nd is probably better IMO. If skinner was better he would not have needed to cheat.

Greymane defected somewhere around the time of HOC, was he privy to inner workings of the fight between Skinner and the 2nd? RAFO in my case.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[Grief]

If you've not read RotCG, id advise you to watch out in these forums.

[Urizen]

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 08:40 PM, said:

Also, the second seguleh is killed by skinner.

No, No and No. This is not true at all. We have no clue as to why the 2nd is after Skinner. Going by what we see in the books, the 2nd existed and died long before Skinner was even born.

[L'oric]

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

If you've not read RotCG, id advise you to watch out in these forums.

Oh I do not mind reading future storylines. 90 percent of my enjoyment in reading is the actual reading...strange as that may seem. Spoilers including most of the major plot points in RotCG I have already read/known/forgotten about and am still awaiting to read and remember.

I am a big boy but thank you for the warning it is on occassion a needed thing to do. Just not in my case.

Then again maybe Urizen read RotCG and already knows. [quote]
No, No and No. This is not true at all. We have no clue as to why the 2nd is after Skinner. Going by what we see in the books, the 2nd existed and died long before Skinner was even born. [quote]


Sincerely,
L'oric

[BeLeG]

sacase when was Rake defeated in a swordfight?Did the Seguleh beat him?No
Tell me is there anyone else who has killed a score of Seguleh without a pause?
Even Tool was hard-pressed by an un-ranked Thurule.Rake killed a score of Seguleh and then he beat their seventh best swordsman.And then he left because because he was physically tired.So what?What does that prove in terms of sword-skill?Absolutely nothing.
So,who's making things up?

[sacase]

OK So can we all now agree that Rake was exhausted after his two hours on Seguleh Island?

[Grief]

Depends how you define exhausted.
Was he on the point of falling over, I doubt, was he tired, almost certainly.

Its hard to judge without seeing his fight with draconus, or seeing draconus' skill in relation to others.

[sacase]

BeLeG, on Feb 7 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

sacase when was Rake defeated in a swordfight?Did the Seguleh beat him?No
Tell me is there anyone else who has killed a score of Seguleh without a pause?
Even Tool was hard-pressed by an un-ranked Thurule.Rake killed a score of Seguleh and then he beat their seventh best swordsman.And then he left because because he was physically tired.So what?What does that prove in terms of sword-skill?Absolutely nothing.
So,who's making things up?

The Dessem Rake arguement and the Seguleh Rake arguement are actually two different arguements. Now back to the task at hand.

Ok, so now you admitted that Rake was exhausted. Good. Now remember, Rake fought an Elder God for 3 days strait. 3 days vs. 2 hours. I think that says alot about how hard the Seguleh pressed Rake. You don't get exuasted killing 20 people without pause. Rake is also not one to back down from a challenge. Rake has no issues about condemming people to his sword. On the hill with WJ, he was going to do it, but WJ killed them instead. He was also going to put the Wizards of Pale in his sword as well I belive Baruk (maybe someone else) delivered their heads instead of allowing Rake to put them in there. If Rake truly cared about people being condemed to his sword he would have killed them with magic and not his sword.

We know Rake beat the 7th, but we don't know how long the fight lasted. We also don't know the rank of the seguleh he fought prior to fighting the seventh. We know Senu is a 11th level initiate, but there was no indication as to if Thurule was in the top 1000 as the only thing we know about Thurule is that his mask was less ornate than Senu's and he was ranked higher. Also we don't know what a 11th level initiate is in the hirarchy of seguleh society. Every statement is backed up by the passages in the books.

Now here is a good questions, is it the skill of the writer that allows people to read the same words differently?

[Aptorian]

Show me the quote that states that Rake fought for 3 days. Quotes or it didn't happen.

[Grief]

Definetely. I love how everything is open to interpretation.

As for the draconus thing, im not actually sure where the 3 days thing comes from, or if its reliable.
As for not backing down, we see him doing that over pale, to save the lives of his people, and the normal soldiers below, so that shows he is compassionate about indiscriminate killing.

As for Pales wizards, he had cause to hate them. They betrayed him by running away. This doesn't seem terrible, but if you think about it, it probably caused the deaths of many Tiste Andii.

[Grief]

Aptorian, on Feb 7 2009, 09:07 PM, said:

Show me the quote that states that Rake fought for 3 days. Quotes or it didn't happen.

What he said.

[sacase]

Aptorian, on Feb 7 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

Show me the quote that states that Rake fought for 3 days. Quotes or it didn't happen.

Hey, I am just going by what was stated earlier in this thread. Now if someone would direct me to the book which they think the quote is in, I will be more than happy to look it up.

[Grief]

Well, it hasn't come up much before, so i'd guess TTH?

However, I cant recall reading it, so it may just be misinformation.

I blame silencer.