[Grief]

Yes, but I reckon he more likely backed down on compassionate grounds.

There really is no reason for him to stay and kill the seguleh, so why should he?

[Viandaran]

sacase, on Feb 6 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Feb 6 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

sacase, on Feb 6 2009, 07:57 PM, said:

I put Rake further down the list as far as skill goes.

As mentioned before Rake fights elder God for 3 days and wins

Rake visits Seguleh Island and has to leave by warren getting no further than 7 because he is so pressed. So Seguleh 1-6 are better.

Grrrhh.

Rake, thought a score or more duels one after another, in a quick succesion against very lethal oponents, untill he finally had enough and left via warren. Envy said to slow his beating immortal heart or something like that. Said in another way, he was pressed to the point that he actually had to excert himself.

This is a long way away from fighting for his life.

Rake was able to control the fight against Dassem and mastermind the setting of the killing blow, that tells me all that I need to know of how good a swordsman Rake was.

I just don't put Rake as high as most people as far as swordmanship goes. Now as far as pure power,yeah. Swordmanship, not so much.

If you have to leave to slow your heart, then I would argue that you are fighting for your life. Think about it. He fought an elder god for three days. Using your numbers he fought 20 duels in quick succesion. I am sure those duels didn't take 3 days. The Seguleh pressed him to a point that he had to leave. I would argue top 5 would be able to take him if it was just sword skill. But if it was a choice of dying or using magic to win, Rake would use everything at his disposal.

The fight with Dassem was a fight he could not afford to take any chances on. He had to ensure that he died on his own blade and not Dassem's. If I recall it was a blocked blow that drove his own sword into his head. He intentionally did this, its not as if he tricked Dassem into doing something special. (Then again I could be wrong since it has been a minute since I read the book)

Rake has never really impressed me with his sword skill as much as other such as Dassem, Brys, Mok and Tool. What makes these guys so good is that their power resides in their sword skill, not other abilities.

crazy. to absolutely BEAT a poor dead conversation, when discussing Kallor's skill level with a sword, Brood (i believe) says (paraphrased), "Kallor's not that great a swordsman, he just picks fights at the right time against the right people...He's never crossed blades with the likes of Dassem, Rake, the Seguleh 1st, etc."

i probably have that list wrong but Rake is definitely in Brood's list of the absolute best. they aren't talking overall power; they are talking swordsmanship. Brood's fought with and against the best over a VERY long time, so i'd say his opinion is pretty valid.

also, if i'm not mistaken, Rake had NO intention of fighting at all when he went to Seguleh-land. i think Envy said he was killing time or on some type of walkabout, knew nothing about their culture and so walked into these duels blind since he doesn't defer to anyone. Rake's not a monster killing just to kill - maybe he got sick of having to kill these people one after another FOR NO REASON? just because he stopped before he got to #1 doesn't guarantee "they pressed him to a point that he had to leave". it might but i think you're making a huge assumption.

most people seem to put Dassem and Rake at the top of the list but i'd go so far as to say Rake's ability to orchestrate his own demise while fighting AGAINST Dassem puts him alone at the top of this list.

[Silencer]

Agreed with Viandaran.

More to the point, Lady Envy also said that Rake was shocked and sickened at the reaction of the Seguleh. He retreated into his warren merely to slow the hammering of his heart. He was not exhausted. You are saying that someone, after having run 5km, and has a heart rate of 110, is exhausted? I think not. If they are lying on the ground breathing heavily, barely able to move, then they are exhausted. High heart rate = adrenaline, and the fact that he has been moving quickly. Nothing more.

[Grief]

Its not baudin.
Just the same avatar he used to have

[Silencer]

XD

I don't see any mistake. What are you talking about?


Apologies to Viandaran, my bad.

[Aptorian]

And in comes apt to the rescue. 10 posts deleted.

EDIT: No editting of serious apts posts!

[Silencer]

Apt, how could you kill all that joy? How could you?!?!?

[Grief]

On topic:

We also have Envy saying Rake wouldn't even bother to fight Mok. I think that if he felt Mok was a strong challenge, he would.

Off topic:

Apt, stop editting posts! Or I'll report you to an admin!

[Viandaran]

wow - you folks are confusing...

i was going to change the avatar but Baudin said "no worries" and to leave it ...

[Silencer]

Nah, it's me. I've only just woken up and wasn't paying attention.

[HoosierDaddy]

Viandaran, on Feb 6 2009, 05:13 PM, said:

wow - you folks are confusing...

You should probably blame Brood.

On the whole Rake v. Seguleh thing... before TTH I would hvae been tempted to go with the Seguleh. However, after the Dassem v. Rake fight, I have to think that Rake's skill with the sword is unmatched.

[sacase]

Silencer, on Feb 6 2009, 04:27 PM, said:

Agreed with Viandaran.

More to the point, Lady Envy also said that Rake was shocked and sickened at the reaction of the Seguleh. He retreated into his warren merely to slow the hammering of his heart. He was not exhausted. You are saying that someone, after having run 5km, and has a heart rate of 110, is exhausted? I think not. If they are lying on the ground breathing heavily, barely able to move, then they are exhausted. High heart rate = adrenaline, and the fact that he has been moving quickly. Nothing more.

Actually that is not quite right. MOI, P159 "Two bells. That was the full duration of Rake's visit to the island and its people. He described the ferocity of that short time, and his dismay and exhastion which led him to withdraw into his warren if only to slow the hammering of his heart."

After 2 hours of fighting 20 Segulah one after another he was exhausted. He fought an elder God for 3 days. The Seguleh pressed him so hard he had to leave. There was nothing about him being sickend or digusted mentioned in the passage. Infact, it was mentioned that he was arrogant and deferred to no one. If he wanted to not put people in Dragnipur then he would have stopped after the first couple duels, not 20 down the line. Rake, according to Envy, said he was dismayed, meaning shocked, disillusioned or alarmed, take your pick.

As far as Lady Envy saying Rake would not bother fighting Mok, that is also incorrect.

She said Rake would meet anyone with a steady unwavering eye. Mok said then they would fight. P160.

Like I said as far as swordmanship goes, Rake is not the best.

[L'oric]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 6 2009, 04:15 PM, said:

Viandaran, on Feb 6 2009, 05:13 PM, said:

wow - you folks are confusing...

You should probably blame Brood.

On the whole Rake v. Seguleh thing... before TTH I would hvae been tempted to go with the Seguleh. However, after the Dassem v. Rake fight, I have to think that Rake's skill with the sword is unmatched.

As always I feel the need to chime in and say.

Rake skill with the sword WAS unmatched, and I hope that it stays in the past tense.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[Silencer]

Your own quote defeats you, sacase.

"led him to withdraw into his warren if only to slow the hammering of his heart."

He didn't need to. He would not have been defeated. And, I also doubt that the first Seguleh could fight his way through 20, including the 7th, and continue. Or do you think he could? As he obviously could not, Rake is (was) the premier swordsman. You forget, you see, that skill with a sword can only be judged in one on one battles, or someone's ability to fight many people. Many one on one battles after each other only shows stamina.

Ergo, Rake would have won.

[sacase]

Silencer, on Feb 7 2009, 12:18 AM, said:

Your own quote defeats you, sacase.

"led him to withdraw into his warren if only to slow the hammering of his heart."

He didn't need to. He would not have been defeated. And, I also doubt that the first Seguleh could fight his way through 20, including the 7th, and continue. Or do you think he could? As he obviously could not, Rake is (was) the premier swordsman. You forget, you see, that skill with a sword can only be judged in one on one battles, or someone's ability to fight many people. Many one on one battles after each other only shows stamina.

Ergo, Rake would have won.

When you chop a sentence, then yes you are right. But when taking in full context, your wrong. Rake admitted to his own exhaustion in fighting the seguleh. When you take the full context of what was said, essential, Rake was shocked at the ferociousness (sp) and was exhausted by his 2 hour stay. If rake would not have been defeated, why was he exhausted and had to leave. Hell, by your reasoning rake could have became the first and had an army of seguleh to join his TA.

You are making assumptions about what the first can do, there has been no hint of his ability other than he is better than Mok. So you are basing your judgement on what the seguleh first can do off of pretty much nothing.

Also, it is unknown who Rake fought. We know he fought the 7th, but there is no indication of the other 19. Were they initiates? Ranked? If so how high?

[Silencer]

We do not know that the First is better than Mok - we know that the First sent Mok away because it was getting to the point that Mok could have surpassed the First.

We have seen what Mok can do. We know he can defeat Tool. Do you think Rake can defeat Tool? Do you think it would take him more than a few seconds? It took Mok plenty of time. We have, actually, quite a reasonable indication of the First's skills.

Further, your note about Rake gaining an army of Seguleh...he is a reluctant ruler. He rules the Tiste Andii because he feels he is responsible for them, and they look to him for guidance. He does not want to see them all slowly waste away of ennui. Why, exactly, would he want a Seguleh army?

Rake also did not admit to his exhaustion. We have never heard him speak of the event, only Envy. Provided she is reliable (of which there is no guarantee, ofc, but it's all we have to go on), her terms were in contradiction. He was dismayed and exhausted, then to say "if only" mitigates the description of exhaustion.

Note, also, that Brood, as pointed out above, puts Rake, Dassem, and the Seguleh First as the premier swordsmen which Kallor has never fought. Now, we've seen Rake vs Dassem, wherein Rake manipulated Dassem into killling him with his own sword. Do you think Dassem would lose to the Seguleh First? Or, indeed, that the Seguleh First could manipulate Dassem into doing something the way Rake did? Finally, tell me if you think the Seguleh First has ever done what Rake did. We have no evidence of this. Do you think he could? If so, why? Do you think Mok could?

[sacase]

Silencer, on Feb 7 2009, 03:25 AM, said:

We do not know that the First is better than Mok - we know that the First sent Mok away because it was getting to the point that Mok could have surpassed the First.

We have seen what Mok can do. We know he can defeat Tool. Do you think Rake can defeat Tool? Do you think it would take him more than a few seconds? It took Mok plenty of time. We have, actually, quite a reasonable indication of the First's skills.

Further, your note about Rake gaining an army of Seguleh...he is a reluctant ruler. He rules the Tiste Andii because he feels he is responsible for them, and they look to him for guidance. He does not want to see them all slowly waste away of ennui. Why, exactly, would he want a Seguleh army?

Rake also did not admit to his exhaustion. We have never heard him speak of the event, only Envy. Provided she is reliable (of which there is no guarantee, ofc, but it's all we have to go on), her terms were in contradiction. He was dismayed and exhausted, then to say "if only" mitigates the description of exhaustion.

Note, also, that Brood, as pointed out above, puts Rake, Dassem, and the Seguleh First as the premier swordsmen which Kallor has never fought. Now, we've seen Rake vs Dassem, wherein Rake manipulated Dassem into killling him with his own sword. Do you think Dassem would lose to the Seguleh First? Or, indeed, that the Seguleh First could manipulate Dassem into doing something the way Rake did? Finally, tell me if you think the Seguleh First has ever done what Rake did. We have no evidence of this. Do you think he could? If so, why? Do you think Mok could?

Ok I don't get all the love fest for Rake "manipulating" Dassem into killing him. All Rake did was stand in his path, knowing that Dassem would not yield. Anyone could do that. It was nothing special and didn't take a lot of manipulation and had nothing to do with skill as a swordsman. Now as for the actualy blow that killed him All Rake did was use a weak guard that he knew could not block a powerful blow. Once again, nothing any accomplished swordsman would not know how to do.

Either we take Envy at her word about what happend or we dismiss it. You cant pick and choose what part of the event you want to belive just so it fits your arguement. She was relating the story to Toc as it was told to her by Rake. Granted it could be wrong. But Rake spoke of his dismay and exaustion, why would she make that up when she wasn't even there. I don't even understand why you are even arguing the point since it is right there in print. I guess perhaps it takes away from his aura of perfection. The passage in MOI gave me the impression of he was going to check out Seguleh island and he really stepped in it and had to leave quickly.

When reading the passage about Dassem and Rake's fight. I got the impression that Rake knew Dassem was a better swordsman. Rake just had to make sure that he died with his own sword, not with Dassems. Also remember that WJ was able to hold off Dassem for a while to. Once again, nothing special in the whole fight that screamed to me what an awsome swordsman he was. If anything, it showed me Dassems confidence that he could not be beat by anyone. Dassem seemed regretful that he knew he was going to kill Rake.

I don't know why you are even asking about the Seguleh first, we have no clue about how good he is. Once again someone "said" (Was it Envy?) that Mok was sent away because he was close to challenging the first. Mok never said so nor did the first. The fact remains we do not know who the Seguleh first has fought, much less who he is or what he has done. The only thing that we know is that he is better than Mok. Not by much, it seems, but as of right now he is better.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Actually It was K'rul who said that the First sent Mok away because he was becoming too good. He should know:he's an EG

As for Dassem vs Rake I have actually believed that Dassem wanted to enter Dragnipur so he could get to hood but he was to proud too simply trow himself on the sword so he challenged Rake because he knew that Rake was a better swordman than him and should have killed him. But then things went as we know.

[Grief]

As far as I recall, Rake did not say he backed away.
Rake manipulated Dassem, because he needed to be in dragnipur.
You are now trying to argue that someone who can fight for 3 days solid does not have the strength to block the blow of a mortal.
If Rake truly wanted to stop dassem her could've destroyed with magic.
Rake had a deal with Hood, that most likely involved keeping him away from Dassem.
There is no way that Rake did not intend to die.
He HAD to go into dragnipur, to save the gate.

If rake wanted to beat the seguleh, he could destroy them. He's a dragon.
Rake said he was shocked by their ferocity.
I read this as he was shocked that they kept attacking him. Wouldn't you be, because you show up at an island, and are suddenly challenegd by scores of fighters?

He was not exhausted. He just couldn't be bothered fighting any more. He knew he would continue to win, enslaving many seguleh.

Just because you leave does not make you a worse fighter.

It makes you compassionate.

Its like arguing that because Dassem walks away from fighting a 10 year old child with no sword skills, he is somehow worse.
He's not.
There is just no reason for him to kill him.

[sacase]

Grief, on Feb 7 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

As far as I recall, Rake did not say he backed away.
Rake manipulated Dassem, because he needed to be in dragnipur.
You are now trying to argue that someone who can fight for 3 days solid does not have the strength to block the blow of a mortal.
If Rake truly wanted to stop dassem her could've destroyed with magic.
Rake had a deal with Hood, that most likely involved keeping him away from Dassem.
There is no way that Rake did not intend to die.
He HAD to go into dragnipur, to save the gate.

If rake wanted to beat the seguleh, he could destroy them. He's a dragon.
Rake said he was shocked by their ferocity.
I read this as he was shocked that they kept attacking him. Wouldn't you be, because you show up at an island, and are suddenly challenegd by scores of fighters?

He was not exhausted. He just couldn't be bothered fighting any more. He knew he would continue to win, enslaving many seguleh.

Just because you leave does not make you a worse fighter.

It makes you compassionate.

Its like arguing that because Dassem walks away from fighting a 10 year old child with no sword skills, he is somehow worse.
He's not.
There is just no reason for him to kill him.

Ok now you are just making stuff up.

First, his manipulation had nothing to do with skill with a sword.

Second, he intentionally used a weak guard in which he knew he could not block a powerful blow. He knew by using that guard he could not effectivly parry a strong attack. That has nothing to do with Stamina. Nothing to do with skill. I would argue that swordsman are taught which guards can defend against what type of attacks. Rake knew the guard he was using was weak.

I have not arugued that Rake couldn't have used magic nor have I argued that he wanted to be in Dragnipur. In fact I argued that he did want to be in there because I have said that he had to make sure that he was killed with his own sword. Read the text, it specifically says he used the same guard he started with, pommel high to the right, except this time the pommel was higher than his opening stance.

The text says he was exhausted, its right there in black and white, what more do you need? It doesn't say that he couldn't bothered, your just making stuff up to fit the image of Rake that you want. Rake is far from compassionate. MOI P160 Envy says he will meet anyone with an steady unwavering eye, meaning he will not back down from anyone, to which Mok responded then we will fight. I already said that when you take Rakes other abilities into account he was more powerful. But on pure swordskill his was not the best.

This post has been edited by sacase: 07 February 2009 - 07:02 PM