[The Drum]

So I know Bottle's a lowly squad mage and that he's technically not a practitioner of warren magic, but is he a high mage? I know he can 'capture' the souls of small animals and 'hold' them so he can see through thier eyes, but he also heals to some extent in RG, he hides his squad when thier in the forrests, which to me suggests he can also use Mockra and Denul. Quick Ben uses more than one warren and he's now a high mage. Also does anyone know what warren Sinn uses?

[Silencer]

The number of Warren's that a person can use is not what makes them a High Mage. It's all about how they use it. If you recall, Quick got promoted back in Memories of Ice, after controlling the landslide of half a mountain, using an illusion that actually managed to kill people, and a whole bunch of other things. Not to mention allowing an army to traverse a river using like 6 different warrens at once.

You are, I'm afraid, sparking up an old debate regards whether Bottle is a High Mage or not. I don't think he is, but could eventually be. And I'll leave it at that.

Sinn uses Telas or Thyr. Probably Telas because she is involved with fire in the Y'Ghatan incident.

[The Drum]

Silencer, on Nov 29 2008, 10:01 PM, said:

The number of Warren's that a person can use is not what makes them a High Mage. It's all about how they use it. If you recall, Quick got promoted back in Memories of Ice, after controlling the landslide of half a mountain, using an illusion that actually managed to kill people, and a whole bunch of other things. Not to mention allowing an army to traverse a river using like 6 different warrens at once.

You are, I'm afraid, sparking up an old debate regards whether Bottle is a High Mage or not. I don't think he is, but could eventually be. And I'll leave it at that.

Sinn uses Telas or Thyr. Probably Telas because she is involved with fire in the Y'Ghatan incident.

I know that the only reason QB became a high mage was cos he revealed too much of his power which got him noticed and therefore premoted. What I'm asking is do you think that bottle is a powerful enough mage to warrent him being a 'high mage' or master of magic if you prefer?


With Sinn, she held back the fire a Y'Ghatan, but in RG she 'unravels' the magic of the ice that was about to destroy that island (forgot its name), so Telas and Thyr are 'fire' magic, does that mean that fire is more powerful than ice or was it just that the original magic holding the ice in place was already unravelling?

[Silencer]

I get the feeling that Sinn was just speeding up a natural process - but she IS a High Mage. Thyr is light, btw, not Fire. But they are close enough related that they can be either/or.

As I said, I don't think Bottle is, at present, a High Mage. He has the potential, but I would personally prefer it if he didn't become one. Look at what Quick Ben has done, what Sinn has done, Tay, etc. Now think over Bottle. Sure, he's got a lot of warrens (which pisses me off in and of itself), but he is not just hiding his power. He just can't do what QB does.

[Aptorian]

This topic actually has two main questions. One concerns Bottle and the other is a question about the nature of being a High Mage.

Lets take the essential question first, what is a High Mage? A High Mage is both a title in the Malazan army and an indication of skill or power. Up untill BH and RG, we had the notion that High Mage was a title you had to work hard to get. It was a position that told a lot about the knowledge and capabilities of the mage in question. What we've seen of Sinn and Beak however suggests that High Mage in the army merely indicates you're a heavy hitter. That you're not just a midling practioner able to pull a few spell that are usefull for a squad in a battle, but you're actually able to do some serious damage or you can weave powerfull complicated spells in the heat of battle. High Mages are sort of the WMD of the army.

There's a lot about Bottle we still don't know and understand, in fact there is a lot that Bottle doesn't know about himself yet. He seems to have a great potential but also knows the risk of using such powers. He does know how to use warrens, he just prefers to use the older stuff. It's what he was taught. The fact that he's able to use more than one warren isn't anything remarkable. All the squad mages in the marines were taught mocra/shadow tricks for the invasion, which shows that warren usage is more than just affinity. But how ever much power Bottle might be able to handle, what makes Bottle so dangerous is the ancient knowledge he seems to posses. Like Quick he seems to have soaked up a lot of secrets and has a natural understanding of things that makes him so much more dangerous. Bottle so far seems to be a scholar more than a fighter. Bottle hasn't shown much potential as a battlemage and might never.

The big questiom we're left with after RG, was what the Dal Hon warlock was talking about when he was making accusations at Bottle. Something about bad things he will cause in the future. Something about Bottle being bad news.

[The Drum]

Silencer, on Nov 29 2008, 10:22 PM, said:

I get the feeling that Sinn was just speeding up a natural process - but she IS a High Mage. Thyr is light, btw, not Fire. But they are close enough related that they can be either/or.

As I said, I don't think Bottle is, at present, a High Mage. He has the potential, but I would personally prefer it if he didn't become one. Look at what Quick Ben has done, what Sinn has done, Tay, etc. Now think over Bottle. Sure, he's got a lot of warrens (which pisses me off in and of itself), but he is not just hiding his power. He just can't do what QB does.

But to be honest he doesn't use the same power as others, his is 'earth magic' but does he actually 'dip' into the warrens to heal hide etc or does his magic cover a broad field of talents but at a smaller scale than a practitioner of a warren? It never really says he's accessing a warren as far as i can recall and i'm sure that when the marines near Lether, one of the defending mages describes the mages in the marine as unable to combat thier magic and i'm sure he says theres a powerful 'earth/old' magic user with the marines which refers to Bottle. I'll have to look it up when I get chance.

[The Drum]

Aptorian, on Nov 29 2008, 10:25 PM, said:

This topic actually has two main questions. One concerns Bottle and the other is a question about the nature of being a High Mage.

Lets take the essential question first, what is a High Mage? A High Mage is both a title in the Malazan army and an indication of skill or power. Up untill BH and RG, we had the notion that High Mage was a title you had to work hard to get. It was a position that told a lot about the knowledge and capabilities of the mage in question. What we've seen of Sinn and Beak however suggests that High Mage in the army merely indicates you're a heavy hitter. That you're not just a midling practioner able to pull a few spell that are usefull for a squad in a battle, but you're actually able to do some serious damage or you can weave powerfull complicated spells in the heat of battle. High Mages are sort of the WMD of the army.

There's a lot about Bottle we still don't know and understand, in fact there is a lot that Bottle doesn't know about himself yet. He seems to have a great potential but also knows the risk of using such powers. He does know how to use warrens, he just prefers to use the older stuff. It's what he was taught. The fact that he's able to use more than one warren isn't anything remarkable. All the squad mages in the marines were taught mocra/shadow tricks for the invasion, which shows that warren usage is more than just affinity. But how ever much power Bottle might be able to handle, what makes Bottle so dangerous is the ancient knowledge he seems to posses. Like Quick he seems to have soaked up a lot of secrets and has a natural understanding of things that makes him so much more dangerous. Bottle so far seems to be a scholar more than a fighter. Bottle hasn't shown much potential as a battlemage and might never.

The big questiom we're left with after RG, was what the Dal Hon warlock was talking about when he was making accusations at Bottle. Something about bad things he will cause in the future. Something about Bottle being bad news.

You mention Beak as a 'high' mage, but was he? after all he couldn't control his power after a certain point as he stated on a few occassions that he couldn't stop his magic or rest if he wanted too.

I agree with you that Bottle doesn't really suit as a battle mage, he's a bit of a hippy really, love not war and so on. I can't remember him using his magic to actually harm anyone. Also I forgot about the Dal Hon warlock, struggled to understand what he was on about, maybe bottle uses his power to harm in the future which corrupts his magic?

[Aptorian]

Beak was definently a High Mage. While mages like Bottle were worn down untill they practically fell unconcious, Beak kept going both using offensive and defensive magicks all the while. He juggled a dozen forms of magic and displayed an amazing knowledge of the past and the warrens. Like I said, High Mage in the army seems to indicate power, which is why Sinn was announced to be a High Mage. Beak not only had power, he had a great array of skills and knowledge that probably goes beyond what even Quick knows.

I won't put too much stock in his last stand because it was fueled by his own lifeforce and was out of anyones normal range. Still it was damn amazing.

Beak is a strange topic because he seems more like an idiot savant than a normal person. He was the Rainman of the mage community.

[D'rek]

I'd like to point out that a lot of run-of-the-mill mages have some diversity, whether that means using multiple warrens, or just accomplishing varied feats with one warren. For example, Kulp was a great illusionist, but he also did some healing and a bit of offensive stuff too. Deadsmell uses Denul and Hood's Path. While Bottle does have diversity and a fair amount of endurance, he is not especially skilled with any of his talents. As far as Meanas, his seemingly primary warren, goes he's not as powerful as Kulp, QB or even Balgrid. As far as his warlockiness, Nil and Nether reflect on how they used to do what he does when they were kids. Surely he is nothing like Sormo E'nath. All in all, I think Bottle is just diverse, but not nearly powerful enough to be a High Mage.



Next High Mage -> Ebron.

[T'renn]

I thought you neede to completely master a Warren to become a high mage, I mean Tayschrenn has been said to use HIGH Telas in MOI

[Aptorian]

D'rek, on Nov 30 2008, 02:44 AM, said:

I'd like to point out that a lot of run-of-the-mill mages have some diversity, whether that means using multiple warrens, or just accomplishing varied feats with one warren. For example, Kulp was a great illusionist, but he also did some healing and a bit of offensive stuff too. Deadsmell uses Denul and Hood's Path. While Bottle does have diversity and a fair amount of endurance, he is not especially skilled with any of his talents. As far as Meanas, his seemingly primary warren, goes he's not as powerful as Kulp, QB or even Balgrid. As far as his warlockiness, Nil and Nether reflect on how they used to do what he does when they were kids. Surely he is nothing like Sormo E'nath. All in all, I think Bottle is just diverse, but not nearly powerful enough to be a High Mage.

Next High Mage -> Ebron.

Who is Balgrid and why are you comparing Bottle with him again? My memory is drawing a blank.

I think Bottle is High Mage material, he's just not shown himself to be much of a Battlemage... yet. Like Quick, he prefers to stay low and he's obviously very cautious. We have yet to actually see Bottle do some real dirtywork with those skills of his.

Comparing Bottle, without actually having seen him do something big, with guys like the wican warlocks and Quick is a bit unfair. They're all special cases. Quick basically being twelve mages in one and having a powerlevel over 9000 and the warlocks being very old souls with hundreds of years of experience.

Try comparing Bottle to the likes of the Apocalypse High Mages or some of the more docile Cabal mages or Darujistan, and I don't doubt that Bottle has it in him to play High Mage. That's just not what he's interested in. Personally, especially after the Dal Hon hint from RG, I expect great things from the guy.

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Nov 30 2008, 08:12 AM, said:

I thought you neede to completely master a Warren to become a high mage, I mean Tayschrenn has been said to use HIGH Telas in MOI

Like I wrote above, I think we need to seperate the idea of a civilian High Mage and a High Mage in the military. Outside the army a High Mage is a great talent, someone like Baruk or the Trygalle mages. They have a deep understanding of their warrens and their feats are of extraordinary in their complexity and depth. In the army, someone like Sinn who acts out of instinct not a deeper understanding, but shows great power is ellevated to the status of High Mage. Now of course, the 14th is sorely lacking real magical power, which would lead to the command taking anything it can get. Granted we don't know Sinn from a POV or anything, but she's hardly a master. Just powerfull. Really powerfull.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Nov 30 2008, 09:31 AM, said:

D'rek, on Nov 30 2008, 02:44 AM, said:

I'd like to point out that a lot of run-of-the-mill mages have some diversity, whether that means using multiple warrens, or just accomplishing varied feats with one warren. For example, Kulp was a great illusionist, but he also did some healing and a bit of offensive stuff too. Deadsmell uses Denul and Hood's Path. While Bottle does have diversity and a fair amount of endurance, he is not especially skilled with any of his talents. As far as Meanas, his seemingly primary warren, goes he's not as powerful as Kulp, QB or even Balgrid. As far as his warlockiness, Nil and Nether reflect on how they used to do what he does when they were kids. Surely he is nothing like Sormo E'nath. All in all, I think Bottle is just diverse, but not nearly powerful enough to be a High Mage.

Next High Mage -> Ebron.

Who is Balgrid and why are you comparing Bottle with him again? My memory is drawing a blank excepy for him being a squadmage?

I think Bottle is High Mage material, he's just not shown himself to be much of a Battlemage... yet. Like Quick, he prefers to stay low and he's obviously very cautious. We have yet to actually see Bottle do some real dirtywork with those skills of his.

I too feel Bottle is High Mage material. Fiddler, during Beak's special purification/Protection spell, "sees" the raw power Bottle has.

Balgrid is the overweight Mage in Hellians squad in RG.
He seems to change warren between TBH and RG though. In TBH his identified as a modertely good Meneas user, Bottle remarks that Balgrid has the skills to produce illusions that looks physically real from all sides (something Bottle himself cant do at the time), Then in RG Balgrid is proclaimed as someone who's using Hood's Path by Beak.

The Bonehunters seem to be in fairly good shape magically. Quick Ben re-appearing, Sinn and Bottle being High Mages-in training and guys like Ebron, Balgrid, Nep Furrow having solid /Power/skills.

[Excellence]

When Beak whitened everyone, Fiddler saw raw power restrained in Bottle.

Funny name, Bottle. Might as well have called his rat Cork.

. . . You either rolled your eyes or quirked a smile. Admit it.

[Aptorian]

I'm wondering if any mage within beaks bubble wouldn't look like a retainer of raw power.

[The Drum]

Aptorian, on Nov 30 2008, 12:54 PM, said:

I'm wondering if any mage within beaks bubble wouldn't look like a retainer of raw power.

Did it say that Bottle 'retained' raw power?
Cos i would have said that any other mage 'draws' power from a warren and its said on numerous occasions that a mage opens his/her warren to draw that power? Therefore I would think that a mage wouldn't neccessarily hold any power except when casting

This post has been edited by The Drum: 30 November 2008 - 08:48 PM

[Aptorian]

Hmm, I think we're heading into the realm of semantics.

[D'rek]

Urizen, on Nov 30 2008, 06:15 AM, said:

Balgrid is the overweight Mage in Hellians squad in RG.
He seems to change warren between TBH and RG though. In TBH his identified as a modertely good Meneas user, Bottle remarks that Balgrid has the skills to produce illusions that looks physically real from all sides (something Bottle himself cant do at the time), Then in RG Balgrid is proclaimed as someone who's using Hood's Path by Beak.

Balgrid's switcheroo is just one of a number of RGisms in the 9th company. For example, Saltlick is put in Urb's squad in tBH, but in RG you'll see him in Gesler's squad. And then he'll teleport to Urb's squad again, and then back to Gesler's.

Anyways, Bottle is a Jakatakan warlock, right? Have we seen any other Jakatakan witches/warlocks to compare him with?

edit: switched 'beak' to 'bottle' (goddamnit!)

This post has been edited by D'rek: 01 December 2008 - 12:22 AM

[Aptorian]

Beak is a mage. What makes you call him warlock?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

It will come, it said in RG (concerning Bottle's power). So rest assured.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Nov 30 2008, 11:40 PM, said:

Beak is a mage. What makes you call him warlock?

Probaly beacause Beak, when coming up on the village where the Marines are staying, refers to the marines as having a oldstyle Jakatakan(Sp?) Warlock, a Dal Honese Bush shaman and a Dal honese Grass Dancer.

I wonder what a Grass Dancer is though? and who it is too.