[frookenhauer]

:Surprise: Is there no end to this? Yes duty is good and not being materialistic is good and one thing that has been left out is that "There is a time and a place for everything" Get on your chariot and shake a spear Arjun...Oh and BTW Krish old buddy, how did you do the whole creation thingy?

[teholbeddict]

To answer your question frook there is no end to this. I've realized flipping through this and through the advice of other that we're looking at the wrong book here. They spend the whole time shooting the breeze in this damned chariot. For the Hindi creationism stories we should have been reading the Vedas. My mistake. Anyways I'm off to the bookstore today to get a copy of the Rig Veda at least as there's more than one Veda out there.

[Epiph]

teholbeddict, on Nov 24 2008, 08:24 AM, said:

To answer your question frook there is no end to this. I've realized flipping through this and through the advice of other that we're looking at the wrong book here. They spend the whole time shooting the breeze in this damned chariot. For the Hindi creationism stories we should have been reading the Vedas. My mistake. Anyways I'm off to the bookstore today to get a copy of the Rig Veda at least as there's more than one Veda out there.

Be prepared for incomprehensible stuff, the mythology of Hinduism is complex.

Krishna is supposedly an incarnation of the god Vishnu. There are three primary gods in the Hindu mythology, Brahma, the creater; Vishnu, the maintainer; and Shiva, the destroyer. They all have their various incarnations and avatars, but generally, Vishnu is the one that gets the most worship: he is not only Krishna, but also Rama.

The Vedas are...they aren't like the Bible. They are mostly a collection of hymns and aphorisms. I would do some research before just picking on up.

The primacy of the Gita as a holy book for Hindus is as a guide to enlightenment. The conversation between Arjuna and Krishna leads Arjuna to enlightenment, so he can be free of doubts and act rightly. Basically it contains the tenets for being a good Hindu (doing one's duty as defined by one's caste, or Dharma, in this case, as a member of the warrior caste, fighting the good fight).

The tenet of non-attachment is probably the most important--this is what allows one to become enlightened and achieve oneness with God. It is, also, Buddha's solution to worldly suffering.

Personally, I find studying Plato so much more satisfying than religious texts...at least he's logical.

[teholbeddict]

I know exactly what you mean now Epiph! I quickly looked up the Vedas today as I wanted to make sure I was buying the right thing this time. I have never seen anything this confusing in my life. Then I tried to just look up info on the hindi theory of creation, which was even worse. It's given me a massive headache!

There is clearly no single book I can pick up that's going to give me the Hindi creation theory all in one shot. In fact one hinduism site I looked at stated that modern hinduism does not rely exclusively on any particular scripture. Another site states that up to 50% of of the people who make up the worshipers of this religion are illiterate due to India's high illiteracy rate. (people located in India statistcly make up the principal body of the religion's worshippers) Which in turn means many people never even read any material but go by the teachings of their gurus or great teachers. Tradition seems to have more of an impact in this case than the written word. I had no idea what I'd bitten off here when starting this. I may just have to collect as much info as I can on the hindi creationism theories from several books and put the main stuff up on here for discussion.

[frookenhauer]

As long as you're having fun...

[teholbeddict]

um yeah.. not so much at the moment! This is driving me nuts I'm thinking of perhaps looking at another religion all together.

[frookenhauer]

Yikes...How about science? The new religion

[zwitterion]

haha, you're boned. The oldest vedic text is the rig ved (1000-6000BCE) but it contains mostly descriptions of rituals and non-creation-related-allegory. In hindu philosophy, universes are always being created and destroyed, and there is no such thing as an absolute chronology. In fact one text, the Yoga Vasishtha, describes a universe which exists only inside the dying instant of an ascetic, whose universe itself exists in the dream of a queen or saint or something. There are allegorical stories you can look up such as the churning of mt meru, but the Hindu and Buddhist cosmogonies don't involve a set "episode 1" as such.

[teholbeddict]

zwitterion, on Nov 24 2008, 09:37 PM, said:

haha, you're boned. The oldest vedic text is the rig ved (1000-6000BCE) but it contains mostly descriptions of rituals and non-creation-related-allegory. In hindu philosophy, universes are always being created and destroyed, and there is no such thing as an absolute chronology. In fact one text, the Yoga Vasishtha, describes a universe which exists only inside the dying instant of an ascetic, whose universe itself exists in the dream of a queen or saint or something. There are allegorical stories you can look up such as the churning of mt meru, but the Hindu and Buddhist cosmogonies don't involve a set "episode 1" as such.

Yes as I said, I've realized that. I have come across a few of these creation stories such as this one:



Before this time began, there was no heaven, no earth and no space between. A vast dark ocean washed upon the shores of nothingness and licked the edges of the night.



A giant cobra floated on the waters. Asleep within its endless coils lay the Lord Vishnu. He was watched over by the mighty serpent. Everything was so peaceful and silent that Vishnu slept undisturbed by dreams motion. From the depths a humming sound began to tremble, Ohm. It grew and spread, filling the emptiness and throbbing with energy.



The night had ended, Vishnu awoke. As the dawn began to break, from Vishnu's navel grew a magnificent lotus flower. In the middle of the blossom sat Vishnu's servant, Brahma. He awaited the Lord's command.



Vishnu spoke to his servant: 'It is time to begin.' Brahma bowed. Vishnu commanded: 'Create the World.' A wind swept up the waters. Vishnu and the serpent vanished.



Brahma remained in the lotus flower, floating and tossing on the sea. He lifted up his arms and calmed the wind and the ocean.



Then Brahma split the lotus flower into three. He stretched one part into the heavens. He made another part into the earth. With the third part of the flower he created the skies.

The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created the animals and the insects to live on the land. He made birds and many fish. To all these creatures, he gave the senses of touch and smell. He gave them power to see, hear and move. The world was soon bristling with life and the air was filled with the sounds of Brahma's creation.

but I know there are several more out there. For this to work in conjunction with the Genesis thread I would need a Religion that has creationism myth/theory compiled into a single story.

[zwitterion]

Hm. well anything with middle eastern roots is going to have variations on the same mythology. Maybe if you looked at animistic religions in the americas?

[teholbeddict]

zwitterion, on Nov 25 2008, 12:37 AM, said:

Hm. well anything with middle eastern roots is going to have variations on the same mythology. Maybe if you looked at animistic religions in the americas?

Thanks for the suggestion ! I'm checking out the Kojiki now to see if it would be a viable option. I'll check out some of the religions of the Americas as soon as I'm done with that.

[SiriusL]

zwitterion, on Nov 24 2008, 10:37 PM, said:

Hm. well anything with middle eastern roots is going to have variations on the same mythology. Maybe if you looked at animistic religions in the americas?

I have a collection of creation stories from several native tribes in my area (Pacific NW USA), and I'm sure we could dig up several more from ot her areas. Most of them are short--they don't take pages and pages to tell what happened.

The problem is separating what might be an original creation story from post-Christian times, because some of them are obviously influenced by the Bible. The other problem is there may not be an "original" story. The people had been around for thousands of years, but had never written anything down. Some of the stories they say are from ancient times have been geologically verified tohave taken place maybe a few hundred years ago.

It's probably not unlike the original Vedas, which may have stemmed from different sources and are hence confusing. The ancient people of America may have had some of the same gods and heroes, but have them doing different things.

[Epiph]

I recall that the Japanese/Shinto creation myths are rather interesting. All sorts of incest and murder and what not.

[teholbeddict]

Epiph, on Nov 25 2008, 01:38 PM, said:

I recall that the Japanese/Shinto creation myths are rather interesting. All sorts of incest and murder and what not.

Yes I think many of them are included in the Kojiki. It's looking like it's got all kinds of happenings in there that would make for interesting discussion.

This post has been edited by teholbeddict: 25 November 2008 - 08:22 PM

[teholbeddict]

Okay the Kojiki is really looking like it's going to work. So here goes
The Kojiki
The Kojiki is one of the two primary sources for Shinto, the Japanese national religion. It starts in the realm of myth, with the creation of Japan from foam. Innumerable gods and goddesses are described. The narrative moves from mythology to historical legends, and culminates in a chronology of the early Imperial line.

Section 1 The Beginning of Heaven and Earth

Quote

1 The names of the Deities that were born 2 in the Plain of High Heaven 3 when the Heaven and Earth began were the Deity Master-of-the-August-Centre-of-Heaven, 4 next the High-August-Producing-Wondrous Deity, 5 next the Divine-Producing-Wondrous-Deity. 6 These three Deities were all Deities born alone, and hid their persons. 7 The names of the Deities that were born next from a thing that sprouted up like unto a reed-shoot when the earth, 8 young and like unto floating oil, drifted about medusa-like, were the Pleasant-Reed-Shoot-Prince-Elder Deity, 9 next the Heavenly-Eternally-Standing-Deity. 10 [16] These two Deities were likewise born alone, and hid their persons.

11 The five Deities in the above list are separate Heavenly Deities.

So it looks like to start off with we get the cast of major players... so far so good, should make for an excellent story. Not to give anything away but things get very interesting pretty quickly...

[teholbeddict]

Section 2 - The Seven Divine Generations

Quote

The names of the Deities that were born next were the Earthly-Eternally-Standing-Deity, 1 next the Luxuriant-Integrating-Master-Deity. 2 These two Deities were likewise Deities born alone, and hid their persons. The names of the Deities that were born next were the Deity Mud-Earth-Lord next his younger sister the Deity Mud-Earth-Lady; 3 next the Germ-Integrating-Deity, next his younger sister the Life-Integrating-Deity; 4 next the Deity Elder-of-the-Great-Place, next his younger sister the Deity Elder-Lady-of-the-Great-Place; 5 next the Deity Perfect-Exterior, 6 next his younger sister the Deity Oh-Awful-Lady; 7 next the Deity the Male-Who-Invites, next his younger sister the Deity the Female-Who-Invites.

The names of these Deities are pretty awesome my personal favourite would have to be Oh Awful Lady, a close second would be Germ Integrating Deity! So this takes care of all of the main characters of our story. Coming up we get to the doings of said characters

[frookenhauer]

They sound pretty awesome, I'm sure that the American Indians would have no problems with these names. "dances with wolves" "Goes to the toilet quietly, yet makes much noise therein" . I'm quite partial to the lady that invites...she sounds welcoming

[teholbeddict]

frookenhauer, on Nov 25 2008, 04:18 PM, said:

I'm quite partial to the lady that invites...she sounds welcoming

Typical male why am I not surprised....

[teholbeddict]

Section 3 - The Island of Ongoro

So it looks like were through the introductions and on to some action here! Frookie you may be interested to know you favourite Female Who Invites makes and appearance....

Quote

Hereupon all the Heavenly Deities commanded the two Deities His Augustness the Male-Who-Invites and Her Augustness 1 the Female-Who-Invites, ordering them to "make, consolidate, and give birth to this drifting land." Granting to them a heavenly jewelled spear, 2 they thus deigned to charge them. So the two Deities, standing upon the Floating Bridge of Heaven, 3 pushed down the jewelled spear and stirred with it, whereupon, when they had stiffed the brine till it went curdle-curdle, 4 and drew the spear up, the brine that dripped down from the end of the spear was piled up and became an island. This is the Island of Onogoro.

Ok so it looks like we have our first explanation for land. Apparently it derives from some jewel encrusted spear stirred up by some man and woman until "curdle, curdle" we get stiffening brine. Am I the only one who thinks this sounds slightly dirty?

This post has been edited by teholbeddict: 26 November 2008 - 01:54 AM

[frookenhauer]

teholbeddict, on Nov 26 2008, 12:33 AM, said:

Ok so it looks like we have our first explanation for land. Apparently it derives from some jewel encrusted spear stirred up by some man and woman until "curdle, curdle" we get stiffening brine. Am I the only one who thinks this sounds slightly dirty?

Well its not as blatant as knew or begot...but if you consider the spear to be a phallic symbol and brine is salty, hmm, I don't quite know where to go from here...I'll just leave it there

teholbeddict, on Nov 26 2008, 12:24 AM, said:

Typical male why am I not surprised...

I am nothing if not consistent *bows*