[Mentalist]

hmm
honestly, Dag, dunno,

back in UA, there's not a wholelot of focus on the ancient Slavic Heritage aspect, everyone looks at the founding of Kyiv, and then almost right after that you get Oleg. Igor, Olga., Svyatoslav, and right after that was Volodymyr, and he baptized everyone,

so the Pagan stuff largely gets tossed aside, as a footnote.

We know there was Perun (lightning + War), and Veles patron of cattle)--these are the ones Rus swore by when they fought Byzantines in Bulgaria.

there's also been mentions of Dazhboh ("Give-God") of the Sun, and Stryboh ("jump-god") of the wind.
Kolyada was a seasonal deity, that came to be associated with the Orthodox Christmass--Xmass carols are still called "Kolyadky", and feature the pagan elements -Sun-Moon-Stars, in particular.

Another seasonal deity was Kupala, supposedly a fertility deity. this was linked to the summer solstice, and is now linked to the feast of John the Baptist, as the holiday of "Ivana-Kupala" ("kupaty" actually means "to bathe").
In villages, this was easily one of the biggest holidays even in the Christian era, proabbaly up to the early 20th century. A number of beliefs were associated with this night, as it was also the night when the supernatural's the closest to the world--people were most likely to meet Rusalkas or Mavkas on this night, girls would engage in fortunetelling, floating wreaths down the river, to find out from where their future husbands would come, etc
It was only the one night a year when ferns would blossom. Anyone who'd find a flowered fern would gain supernatural abilities, be blessed with eternal life, ec.

[Dag]

 Mentalist, on Dec 21 2008, 12:47 AM, said:

back in UA, there's not a wholelot of focus on the ancient Slavic Heritage aspect, everyone looks at the founding of Kyiv, and then almost right after that you get Oleg. Igor, Olga., Svyatoslav, and right after that was Volodymyr, and he baptized everyone,

so the Pagan stuff largely gets tossed aside, as a footnote.

Funny you should say that... I've never been to Ukraine, but as already mentioned in the Inn, my job includes a lot of travelling around Eastern and South-Eastern Europe. I've always been fascinated by the Slavic mythology (there's waaaaay too little literature on this topic), and have always tried to get together as many stories as possible from different people in different countries. (It is just a hobby, it's not like I'm intending to write a book about it or something... ) Now, when you say that the pagan stuff largely got tossed asside to give way to Christianity (either Orthodox or Catholic), I find it interesting that the traces of old Slavic beliefs and traditions have managed to survive to this very day, either incorporated into Christian rituals, or as folklore that still plays signifficant role in social interaction, festive events and customs in smaller villages. You can find old grannys and grandpas there, who are devout Christians, carrying rosaries with them all the time and never missing a holy mass on Sunday, but who still sometimes, when they forget themselves, swear by Perun's arrow, or instead of saying "It's all God's will" say "It will all be as Sudjaja weaves it". I once met someone (a 1950s generation, so by no way an old grandpa) who swore he once saw an old woman in the woods working on a spinning wheel, who foretold him the death of a friend, and everybody in the (Catholic) village simply accepted the fact it was one of the Sudjajas. Also, there are stories of people seeing Baba Roga and the Little Ones of the woods (servants of Stibor, god of forests or of wind, as you already mentioned) and there are still dances and songs devoted to Koledo around the time of winter solstice and to Vesna in spring (although in some traditions Koleda and Vesna are two different names for the same goddess). The funny thing about it is when you ask people how these things fit into their Christian worldviews, nobody can really explain it - they seem surprised that anyone should ask such a question. It's like two parallely coexisting worlds that complement each other in the shaping of social life in the smaller communities. Of course, the big cities are a completely different matter, and the younger generations don't show much interest in old Slavic myths - they seem to be rather interested in "exotic" religions of the Far East or in Norse or Celtic mythologies.

But I will stop there - I don't want to hijack Tehol's most amusing thread . Still, I don't think it would pay to open an extra thread dealing with Slavic creation myths - there is way too little info about it and no written sources.

So, Tehol, honey, I apologize - please, continue with the story of the wild partying deities!

This post has been edited by Dag: 21 December 2008 - 02:29 PM

[teholbeddict]

No worries my dear! I don't mind you guys discussing other creation theories or stories in this thread! It's good to hear some of these other stories it gives an opportunity to look for similarities. The whole point of the thread was to discuss creation theories other than what appear in the bible so there's no harm done!! I'll have another kojiki installment coming up asap, if not today then tomorrow!

[teholbeddict]

Section 16- The Eight-Forked Serpent

Quote

So, having been expelled, His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness descended to a place called Tori-kami at the headwaters of the River Hi in the Land of Idzumo. At this time some chopsticks came floating down the stream. So His Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness, thinking that there must be people at the head-waters of the river, went up it in quest of them, when he came upon an old man and an old woman - two of them - who had a young girl between them, and were weeping. Then he deigned to ask: "Who are ye?" So the old man replied, saving: "I am an Earthly deity, child of the deity Great-Mountain-Possessor. I am called by the name of Foot-Stroking-Elder, my wife is called by the name of Hand-Stroking-Elder, and my daughter is called by the name of Wondrous-Inada-Princess." Again he asked: "What is the cause of your crying?" The old man answered, saying: "I had originally eight young girls as daughters. But the eight-forked serpent of Koshi has come every year and devoured one, and it is now its time to come, wherefore we weep." Then he asked him: "What is its form like?" The old man answered, saving: " Its eyes are like akakagachi, it has one body with eight heads and eight tails. Moreover, on its body grows moss, and also chamaecyparis and cryptomerias. Its length extends over eight valleys and eight hills, and if one look at its belly, it is all constantly bloody and inflamed." Then His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augstness said to the old man: "If this be thy daughter, wilt thou offer her to me?" He replied, saying: "With reverence, but I know not thine august name." Then be replied, saving: I am elder brother to the Heaven-Shining-Great-August deity. So I have now descended from Heaven." Then the deities Foot-Stroking-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder said: "If that be so, with reverence will we offer her to thee." So His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness, at once taking and changing, the young girl into a multitudinous and close-toothed comb which he stuck into his august hair-bunch, said to the deities Foot-Stroking-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder: " Do you distil some eightfold refined liquor. Also make a fence round about, in that fence make eight gates, at each gate tie together eight platforms, on each platform put a liquor-vat, and into each vat pour the eightfold refined liquor, and wait." So as they waited after having thus prepared everything in accordance with his bidding the eight-forked serpent came truly as the old man had said, and immediately dipped a head into each vat, and drank the liquor. Thereupon it was intoxicated with drinking, and all the heads lay down and slept. Then His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness drew the ten-grasp saber, that was augustly girded on him, and cut the serpent in pieces, so that the River Hi flowed on changed into a river of blood. So when he cut the middle tail, the edge of his august sword broke. Then, thinking it strange, he thrust into and split the flesh with the point of his august sword and looked, and there was a great sword within. So he took this great sword, and, thinking it a strange thing, he respectfully informed the Heaven-Shining-Great-August deity. This is the Herb-Quelling Great Sword.

So his Augustness has been booted from the heavens after causing all sorts of grief and finds some chopsticks. He follows the floating chopsticks to a grief stricken family who are about to lose their daughter to an abominable snake. Said snake has eight heads, eight tails, extends the length of eight hills, grows some kind of creepy moss...oh and it has an inflamed and bloody belly. I'm guessing the bloody belly is a result of it dragging it's ass around over the eight hills. You may have noticed the number eight pops up quite a bit in this section (I don't know how you could miss it)! I did a bit of research and it turns out the number eight is considered a lucky number in Japanese culture. Anyways parents work out a deal in which they agree to hand over their daughter in exchange for the death of the snake. Personally I think they would have been better of leaving her to the snake! His-Augustness promptly turns her into a hair ornament and then orders her parents into slave labour setting up a trap for the snake. Clearly he's too good to do the dirty work himself, he just wants the glory of slaying the thing! So they whip up some moonshine (sake in this case) distill it eight times (of course), build eight platforms with fences and prepare eight vats. Mr. Abominable snake slithers along gets wasted on the moonshine, and passes out. His Augustness takes this opportunity to cut the beastie up (cause I'm sure it's so hard to do now that the thing's incapacitated) and finds a sword in one of it's tails! :sabre: In the end he does very little work, but ends up with a new woman, and a shiny new sword. It doesn't seem fair knowing the dastardly deeds he's been guilty of in the past.

[Mentalist]

I was half-expecting the other 7 daughters to pop out of the belly as well..

oh well

interesting note--the people are still deities of some sort, we are yet to see regular humans, iirc.

[teholbeddict]

I agree Ment I was expecting something more eye poppingly shocking from this section. Especially after the last couple, this one seems a little tame. You are also correct in your observation of a lack of "regular people". I'm sure it's coming up at some point, but there seem to be a ton of deities in the kojiki! One thing I didn't understand in this section was how Foot-Stroking-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder end up with a daughter named Wondrous-Inada-Princess. Her name should have something to do with people who have fetishes!