[Daemonwolf]

Avious, on 09 April 2010 - 01:38 AM, said:

To the Karsa debate: I believe that he gains strength and speed from the train of souls he holds in his shadow. Regardless of willpower a 8 foot giant with a 8 foot sword should not be able to move at the same speed as a much smaller opponent with a smaller sword. Of course this is just an assumption that I've made and is very likely not true.

As for the ranking debate, can someone show the quote where it states that the 1st Seguleh is without a mark on his mask? I can't remember where it says that, and if it doesn't whos to say that there is not a 0th Seguleh?

'...these are Seguleh! The most feared warriors on this continent...There’s supposed to be a legendary Seguleh with an unmarked mask. White porcelain. Not that anyone has ever seen him, except the Seguleh themselves, I suppose. They are a warrior caste. Ruled by the champion.' - Toc the Younger - (MoI, UK Trade, p.128)

[LordofTheFallen]

Lets clear this whole thing up, since it gets really jumbled in the past four pages.

The seguleh wasn't there by choice, like all the others, she just had no real reason to leave (that and she was stuck on a different continent). Now seeing how a seguleh loves nothing more than a good fight, she probably decided that she would stick around and fight the emperor when her time came. She almost definately thought she was above all the others in talent, but was stating to see the skill Karsa possessed. Eventually he had proven himself as the best warrior in the compound (next to icarium who wasn't fighting) so she had to fight him to assure herself that she was still the best. The fought and she lost.

After that there wasn't any reason to stick around anymore. Either she knew that rhuland was immortal and couldn't be beaten (and left because she knew he wasn't worth fighting) or she didn't but saw Karsa as the champion. Due to the society, if rhulad killed karsa then he was her superior and possessed more skill than karsa, and if karsa beat her that easily than the emperor would too.

The thing I don't get is that they were fighting rhulad weakest to strongest. So the last three people, in order, should have been the seguleh, karsa, then icarium. She left just as karsa was fighting, so was she already gone during her alotted time or what? For the high ranked fighters I think there was quite a length of time between fights.

[Sinisdar Toste]

LordofTheFallen, on 24 July 2011 - 06:20 AM, said:

Lets clear this whole thing up, since it gets really jumbled in the past four pages.

The seguleh wasn't there by choice, like all the others, she just had no real reason to leave (that and she was stuck on a different continent). Now seeing how a seguleh loves nothing more than a good fight, she probably decided that she would stick around and fight the emperor when her time came. She almost definately thought she was above all the others in talent, but was stating to see the skill Karsa possessed. Eventually he had proven himself as the best warrior in the compound (next to icarium who wasn't fighting) so she had to fight him to assure herself that she was still the best. The fought and she lost.

After that there wasn't any reason to stick around anymore. Either she knew that rhuland was immortal and couldn't be beaten (and left because she knew he wasn't worth fighting) or she didn't but saw Karsa as the champion. Due to the society, if rhulad killed karsa then he was her superior and possessed more skill than karsa, and if karsa beat her that easily than the emperor would too.

The thing I don't get is that they were fighting rhulad weakest to strongest. So the last three people, in order, should have been the seguleh, karsa, then icarium. She left just as karsa was fighting, so was she already gone during her alotted time or what? For the high ranked fighters I think there was quite a length of time between fights.

i think rhulad might have gone on a tear of duels while the malazans were conquering his empire. cut em all down but karsa and iccy. she must have already left the palace at that point.

[Daemonwolf]

I thought that in the midst of all the problems, Rhulad went straight to karsa.... If anything he only warmed up on some no-names...

This post has been edited by Daemonwolf: 24 July 2011 - 10:49 PM

[amphibian]

Rhulad fought duels when the urge struck him. The rest of the time, he was busy running the empire or being crazy. Remember, the calculating monk was yet to fight Rhulad and Karsa basically leapfrogged a ton of people when he fought Rhulad.

[Daemonwolf]

I keep thinking there's a "save the best for last" mentality with regards to when Rhulad would fight the champions, but that with all the stuff in Lether unraveling, that karsa was the only one of the "champions" he actually fought.

[LordofTheFallen]

amphibian, on 24 July 2011 - 10:09 PM, said:

Rhulad fought duels when the urge struck him. The rest of the time, he was busy running the empire or being crazy. Remember, the calculating monk was yet to fight Rhulad and Karsa basically leapfrogged a ton of people when he fought Rhulad.

I thought the gaurd people realized that the monk wasn't a warrior and so he wasn't required to fight. Also, Rhulad specifically asked to fight Karsa last, and then karsa chose his position before Icarium. So either the seguleh ditched early on and was wandering around for a bit, or Karsa decided that he wanted to fight NOW, and simply jumped ahead. But I don't think there were many people left when the marines invaded.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Also I'm sure that Rhulad fought wit at leats another champion and cut him in pieces. I remember this because Karsa tried to use Samar Dev's grief to trick her in sleeping with him (something about needing to celebrate life in the face of death).

[LordofTheFallen]

Rhulad definately fought other champions. The one karsa spared with who had the throwing axes, he was brought back in an unrecognizeable bloody mass. Though he was one of the first.

[Foureyes]

I might be wrong, but don't the Segulah only face those they deem worthy of fighting. She may have decided that Rhulad wasn't ever worthy of fighting. Remember that the Segulah that traveled with Toc the Younger never fought with him because they deemed him unworthy. She might have just decided to go find someone worthy of her time. At least that's what I thought when I was reading....

[Dolmen 2.0]

The Seguleh in general are on a mission to find something.

Spoiler

Their God I believe?

I assume she hightailed it out of there to get back on that mission.

Seguleh almost never travel alone. the exception to doing so seems to either their exiled or hell bent on a mission of high priority. seeing as she still kept her mask I doubt she is in exile. Considering her high rank I'd assume she was a leader of a party ala Mok. The fact she was found near death probably means that she lost her charge to something they could not defeat.

Spoiler

Theres that Warren they travel in RotCG that doesn't seem too friendly, High Ruse i think? and theres the whole mess with poliel and the warrens...

Against magic Seguleh are helpless. I'd assume she encountered something like that and survived. over and above being taken prisoner I deduct she had 3 priorities in mind upon arriving in Lether.

1) Heal up.
2) Fight Champion king.
3) Get back to the mission.

priority two would be a lost cause in her mind. I'm certain she could have taken Rhulad, whom we found was weakest against pure finesse (I.E. Brys and to lesser extent Iron Bars). Finesse we find is a Seguleh forte. What made her give up on priority two was the fact she now had a defacto superior who would take on that duty, Karsa. seeing as priority one was handled by the healers nothing kept her where she was and she could resume her mission which Id assume is...

Spoiler

1)Look for a way through Ruse??? to report back to whitemask and the council Rell kept talking about that judge duels etc. or

2)Look for the God of the Seguleh which, at this point I am certain, is Draconus because Envy seems right at home among them, knows their culture and was at home teaming up with them in MoI

This post has been edited by Dolmen: 14 August 2011 - 09:09 AM

[Mcflury]

Dolmen, on 14 August 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

Against magic Seguleh are helpless.

Well, if I remember correctly there is a mention of seguleh mages as well in the series... we haven't seen them play active roles in the series thus far, but saying the seguleh are helpless against magic is perhaps a bit too harsh.

However, I do get your point

[Sinisdar Toste]

Mcflury, on 14 August 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

Dolmen, on 14 August 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

Against magic Seguleh are helpless.

Well, if I remember correctly there is a mention of seguleh mages as well in the series... we haven't seen them play active roles in the series thus far, but saying the seguleh are helpless against magic is perhaps a bit too harsh.

However, I do get your point

i don't think seguleh mages have been mentioned, though maybe i'm forgetting something.

however in RotCG, when iron bars runs afoul of those seguleh, one of them immediately identifies corlo as a mage and warns him against opening his warren. i wouldn't call seguleh 'helpless' against magic. they're fast enough that if they know who the mage is and can tell when he's opening a warren, he probably won't have a head for long.

of course, if we're talking about ascendant level power, that's completely different.

[Vaddon Ra]

Abyss, on 17 August 2009 - 04:39 PM, said:

Btw, i was just rereading RG and Feather Witch definitively says the mask has 'eleven arcane symbols'.

Now, according to the generally accepted theory, since the first has a white mask, and Mok had two marks and was third, the 'rule' for ranked Seguleh (as opposed to 'initiates' like Senu and possibly Thurule, and 'Blackmasks' ) seems to be rank = # marks +1 (except for the 1st, of course).

Of course, uphtread we find an inconsistency with the 2nd, and the 'Seventh'... we might explain away the Rake vs 7th thing as Rake having faced the 8th when there was a vacancy, but the 2nd is a pretty big one... but fear not... i explain... Cutter spots the mask on the 2nd's hip, but when Karsa speaks with the 2nd the Seguleh is actually wearing it... so it's a different mask. he has a collection. One's a fashion accessory, the other is for work days. He likes to mix it up a little. It's what all the cool kids were doing. One line was SO last century. Oh, fuckit....


- Abyss, ...can't say i didn't try....

Like whatshisface says to Madrun Badrun and Lazan Dor "make some new ones"

[Abyss]

Sinisdar Toste, on 15 August 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Mcflury, on 14 August 2011 - 05:53 PM, said:

Dolmen, on 14 August 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

Against magic Seguleh are helpless.

Well, if I remember correctly there is a mention of seguleh mages as well in the series... we haven't seen them play active roles in the series thus far, but saying the seguleh are helpless against magic is perhaps a bit too harsh.

However, I do get your point

i don't think seguleh mages have been mentioned, though maybe i'm forgetting something.

however in RotCG, when iron bars runs afoul of those seguleh, one of them immediately identifies corlo as a mage and warns him against opening his warren. i wouldn't call seguleh 'helpless' against magic. they're fast enough that if they know who the mage is and can tell when he's opening a warren, he probably won't have a head for long.

of course, if we're talking about ascendant level power, that's completely different.

It could be natural talent or their intense training could leave them with some level of sensitivity.
In MoI Mok warns Envy that Garath is dying from her use of Poliel's warren. Envy herself didn't sense that.

[Overactive Imagination]

I can't believe there's so much discussion about this. I thought the scene where the Seguleh chick was leaving through the tunnel was awesome, and that was it.

[worry]

Chicks, man, you know? Who can understand them?

[the broken]

Vaddon Ra, on 13 July 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:

Avious, on 09 April 2010 - 01:38 AM, said:

To the Karsa debate: I believe that he gains strength and speed from the train of souls he holds in his shadow. Regardless of willpower a 8 foot giant with a 8 foot sword should not be able to move at the same speed as a much smaller opponent with a smaller sword. Of course this is just an assumption that I've made and is very likely not true.

As for the ranking debate, can someone show the quote where it states that the 1st Seguleh is without a mark on his mask? I can't remember where it says that, and if it doesn't whos to say that there is not a 0th Seguleh?

there's also a quote early early on that says the Thelomen Toblakai are able to become their own warran...so perhaps through all the killings and souls and ridiculous Willpower Karsa is able to overcome even his own limits again and again by virtue that he is in effect something of a warran unto himself....just a thought he doesn't like magic though hehehehehe

I always wondered... Is it really that impressive that you're a foe to be reckoned with when you're 10 foot tall, carry an unbreakable sword, are naturally faster stronger and more durable than anyone else while being immune to magic and infection, come from a warrior culture and most commonly fight beings half your size with a couple of months combat training?