[Garak]

He still left most of his knowledge about killing and shadow dancing in her head. Plus muscle memory I think.

This post has been edited by Garak: 09 April 2010 - 12:49 PM

[End of Disc One]

Garak, on 09 April 2010 - 12:48 PM, said:

He still left most of his knowledge about killing and shadow dancing in her head. Plus muscle memory I think.

That's not going to help her kick a huge ass Hound through a wall. I think that in this series unless you're Fener, you don't really lose your power.

[Garak]

Sucks to be Fener, huh?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

What makes you guys think Fener lost his power? He just got pulled out of his realm, and is therefore more vulnerable, he's still not someone you'd wanna bet against in a fight.

[End of Disc One]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 09 April 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

What makes you guys think Fener lost his power? He just got pulled out of his realm, and is therefore more vulnerable, he's still not someone you'd wanna bet against in a fight.

Either way, I stand by my original point of people not losing their power in the Malazan universe.

[Blacksox]

The reason the female Seguleh did not fight Rhulad is simple.

Karsa beat her in combat, meaning Karsa is a better. Karsa wanted to fight Rhulad, so by Seguleh rules that was his right.

Karsa probably only fought her because he new she was good enough to kill Rhulad a few times. Karsa did not want her killing Rhulad and making him stronger.

Since Karsa beat her he now outranks her, and since Karsa wants to fight Rhulad it is only logical she stand dowm.

[Blacksox]

The reason the female Seguleh did not fight Rhulad is simple.

Karsa beat her in combat, meaning Karsa is a better. Karsa wanted to fight Rhulad, so by Seguleh rules that was his right.

Karsa probably only fought her because he new she was good enough to kill Rhulad a few times. Karsa did not want her killing Rhulad and making him stronger.

Since Karsa beat her he now outranks her, and since Karsa wants to fight Rhulad it is only logical she stand dowm.

[Aptorian]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 09 April 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

What makes you guys think Fener lost his power? He just got pulled out of his realm, and is therefore more vulnerable, he's still not someone you'd wanna bet against in a fight.

I agree with this. According to what we learned in RG, he has lost none of his power, but become stuck in the mortal realm and is there fore vulnerable to attack. A child with a rock could kill him now if she was lucky and he was in his humanoid form, but he's still so strong that if he lost control it would be a cataclysmic type event it seems.

Blacksox, on 10 April 2010 - 08:44 PM, said:

Karsa probably only fought her because he new she was good enough to kill Rhulad a few times. Karsa did not want her killing Rhulad and making him stronger.

I think you are overestimating Karsa's thought process and underestimating his massive ego.

Karsa was bored, as those stupid officials had pegged him around the top so it would be days before he got some action. He saw the sparing events in the court yard and wanted to have a "little" fun. So he broke the 11th Seguleh. Because he could.

Karsa is supremely confident. He had decided he was going to kill Rhulad because he didn't like his rule and because he likes killing things. And so he did. I do not believe he ever doubted the outcome of their match.

[Garak]

Quote

What makes you guys think Fener lost his power? He just got pulled out of his realm, and is therefore more vulnerable, he's still not someone you'd wanna bet against in a fight.

I never said he was without power, just that it sucks to be him.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Garak, on 11 April 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

Quote

What makes you guys think Fener lost his power? He just got pulled out of his realm, and is therefore more vulnerable, he's still not someone you'd wanna bet against in a fight.

I never said he was without power, just that it sucks to be him.

The person before you said he did tho.

And about the Karsa thing. He was sparring with all the champions while they were waiting for Rhulad. He beat the shit out of them all so many times that all the normal ones refused to fight him anymore and the Seguleh challenged him after that. She had just been sitting back and watching everyone without participating before that.

[Blacksox]

Quote

And about the Karsa thing. He was sparring with all the champions while they were waiting for Rhulad. He beat the shit out of them all so many times that all the normal ones refused to fight him anymore and the Seguleh challenged him after that. She had just been sitting back and watching everyone without participating before that.

Because he wanted to make sure none of them could beat Rhulad. People who claim Karsa does not have the foresight to think that far ahead are seriously underestimating him, SE writes him as a very intelligent and perceptive character.

I wonder if Karsa went back and had sex with the Seguleh like he taunted Samar that he would. After he beat her in battle I wonder if Seguleh culture required her to submit to his will.

[Moby]

Was it ever actually put down on paper that the 12th (11th) wanted to fight Rhulad?

What was the background behind her being picked up? (wasn't she badly injured and barely alive)
With the seguleh muteness she may have just been biding her time in Letheras after being healed and killing people that challenged her (or not for those that showed acquiescence) until she found a chance to slip out easily (i.e. during the malazan invasion)

[epicfantasynerd]

re: Karsa's power up. The thing is - Karsa is not invincible, in solo combat he is amazing - but the K'Chain Nah'Ruk still messes him up good, Calm destroys him as if he were a baby, Urko knocks him unconscious with a body punch.

As far as beating the Segulah 12th, he uses a foot stomp that is massive enough to imbalance her and others around the battle arena. Something no other mortal could do. He catches her as she is recovering her balance. This speaks to freakish "athletic" gifts as much as swordsmanship.

[T-6005]

Toll The Hounds spoiler to counter Karsa's overpowered-ness.

Spoiler

When watching Dassem Ultor (Dessembrae) and Anomander Rake duel, it freaks him out a little. The actual quote is:
'Faces in the rock,' hissed Karsa Orlong.
'Karsa-'
'No. Only a fool would step between those two.'
And the Toblakai sounded... shaken.

For all that the fight itself is another example of a duel which is remarkably short.

[Vaddon Ra]

beru, on 23 January 2009 - 07:56 AM, said:

QUOTE (Aptorian @ Nov 19 2008, 05:38 AM) Plenty of speculation on this is prior threads. The most likely reason is that Seguleh differ to their superiors. Karsa bestet her and that means she's going to let him face Rhulad, her tittle of Seguleh 11th? was already lost.

There's also the thing that she believed that Rhulad could not beat Karsa after fighting Karsa herself. So there was no interest in it for her.


i agree... BUT where does it say she is 11th?

It never actually says what rank she is. It says something almost identical to this 'A figure wearing a white mask with 11 etched runes patterning the face' or something. It mentions 11 symbols meaning our lovely lady is the 12th not the 11th. If you remember Mok has 2 marks one on each cheek and he is the third. The second has 1 mark and the legendary 1st has none so now Karsa is technically the 12th I think she had no honour left for the fight and thus had to leave her superior, Karsa, the right to fight seeing as he never shuts up about it the whole way through it would be dishonorable to take his glory especially if he has made a claim of challenge and is ranked above her at least....thats what i kind of think

[Vaddon Ra]

D, on 07 September 2009 - 11:58 PM, said:

High house Me, on 06 September 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:

I personally think that the whole theory about different coloured paint is plausable as their ranks go up to 1000 if im nt mistaken an b pretty hard to get that many marks on a mask. unless diferent coloured masks and stuff

The Agatii may be called "the thousand" but there may not literally be exactly a thousand, and either way they probably don't keep rank in the same direct numerical way all the way up to 1000. Likely only the top few (I'd say hundred at the absolute most) have numeric rankings like that and beyond that there are grouped levels or some such. Thurule is probably among those grouped levels (his mask was a weird pattern of some sort but he ranked much higher than Senu).

there probably are 1000 high ranks of the Agatii, some may be dead like the 5th in the barrel that one of the ex marines finds in TTh but perhaps its not 1000 marks but symbols to denote 10's and 100's like roman numerals

oh and I think the whole 7th marks on the 7th thing was probably a misprint he is dealing in 1000 plus pages per book

[Vaddon Ra]

Mirthmonkey, on 16 October 2009 - 06:41 PM, said:

The Seguleh raises the problem I have with Karsa again. IMO he's been made stupidly powerful and without adequate justification for how he got that way. It started going too far for me when he disposed of those two ancient wolves (degulath?) and dragged their heads around. Now the Seguleh... Other books go on about what incredible fighters the Seguleh are. We see them going toe to toe with some "super" characters and really giving them a run for their money. Yet here's one of the best Seguleh there is and she's nothing to Karsa. He defeats her with ridiculous ease.

Karsa's been set up as a near invincible character even in a world becoming increasingly full of super characters, which makes him less than interesting to me. Granted Icarium is just as invincible, but he has an unusual personality to go with it and generally isn't looking for a fight. The dynamic is very different.





He's not invincible at the start of HOC it says he is adept with all the tribes weapons so we know for a start he is a huge badass. SE said himself that in Karsa he is trying to portray almost a battle of willpower, a bestial stubborness, which is possibly why he often gets away with insane things that make you wonder how he ever got that Hard . Although Calm owned him without breaking a sweat. The K'Chain didn't go down easy easy and in TTH he refused to get in the way of Dassem and Rake clearly because he had finally met two people who he knew he could never beat Besides the deragoth are crap anyway. And Karsa's story is all to do with growing up the hard way, through obstinate youth unto wisdom and then having a mature and firm grip on what you believe and what you truly desire. Karsa is willpower itself and I love him. Oh and as to the Seguleh, they are just as fast as each other but you have to remember that he is about 8 feet 5 which gives him a slight advantage over....well....most things really.

oh and lets be honest the seguleh are insanely amazing. SE and ICE aren't trying to claim that every seguleh is a super human, just that in terms of swordfighting they one on one would probably kill most other bog standard armies soldiers. They are our martial artists for the Malaz world
oh but seriously....are you trying to tell me that Mok isn't awesomely awesome he creams Tool...who is the first sword. Oh and Rell???????? come on...he basically stands in a doorway unflinching while his face melts after killing a company of people without taking any damage.

Karsa is....well....he's Karsa aint he

[Vaddon Ra]

Moby, on 23 July 2010 - 06:55 AM, said:

Was it ever actually put down on paper that the 12th (11th) wanted to fight Rhulad?

What was the background behind her being picked up? (wasn't she badly injured and barely alive)
With the seguleh muteness she may have just been biding her time in Letheras after being healed and killing people that challenged her (or not for those that showed acquiescence) until she found a chance to slip out easily (i.e. during the malazan invasion)

thats true she never says she wants to fight him. But even so, she probably fights Karsa for the right of dominance and therefore the leadership to choose to fight Rhulad or not. Remember in MOI the seguleh fight their challenger (tool) in order of rank. She had to know who she did and did not outrank. Clearly Karsa outranks her...and seeing as he had challenged, or by virtue of shouting about it a lot, was billed to fight Rhulad she may as well have stepped down and left him the glory

[Vaddon Ra]

Avious, on 09 April 2010 - 01:38 AM, said:

To the Karsa debate: I believe that he gains strength and speed from the train of souls he holds in his shadow. Regardless of willpower a 8 foot giant with a 8 foot sword should not be able to move at the same speed as a much smaller opponent with a smaller sword. Of course this is just an assumption that I've made and is very likely not true.

As for the ranking debate, can someone show the quote where it states that the 1st Seguleh is without a mark on his mask? I can't remember where it says that, and if it doesn't whos to say that there is not a 0th Seguleh?

there's also a quote early early on that says the Thelomen Toblakai are able to become their own warran...so perhaps through all the killings and souls and ridiculous Willpower Karsa is able to overcome even his own limits again and again by virtue that he is in effect something of a warran unto himself....just a thought he doesn't like magic though hehehehehe

[The Pack]

Vaddon Ra, on 13 July 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:

Avious, on 09 April 2010 - 01:38 AM, said:

To the Karsa debate: I believe that he gains strength and speed from the train of souls he holds in his shadow. Regardless of willpower a 8 foot giant with a 8 foot sword should not be able to move at the same speed as a much smaller opponent with a smaller sword. Of course this is just an assumption that I've made and is very likely not true.

As for the ranking debate, can someone show the quote where it states that the 1st Seguleh is without a mark on his mask? I can't remember where it says that, and if it doesn't whos to say that there is not a 0th Seguleh?

there's also a quote early early on that says the Thelomen Toblakai are able to become their own warran...so perhaps through all the killings and souls and ridiculous Willpower Karsa is able to overcome even his own limits again and again by virtue that he is in effect something of a warran unto himself....just a thought he doesn't like magic though hehehehehe

Just on a side note, does this mean Karsa has some link to the Otatoral dragon (sp), i've only read to RoTCG so no spoilers!

This post has been edited by The Pack: 21 July 2011 - 09:24 PM