[Vallel]

He had no compunction with murdering his own kind for even the slightest expedience. His ambitions lead him to lust after ever greater power at the expense of all else.

Yet in MT, it was revealed that his ultimate goal from allying with the CG was to create an unassailable security and peace for his people against the rapacious Letherii.

Then after all the betrayals, murders and crimes that followed, after his significant hand in the debasement of his people as a whole, we are again shown his pov at the end of RG and despite it all his final intent is still that noble dream from the beginning, to lead his people back to their lands and live in peace with the power to defend themselves from any outside hostility.

The question is, had that ambitious and arrogant warlock from the begining of MT who ruled his people with wisdom and a strong but even hand fallen too far by the end of RG?. Almost certainly.

[D'rek]

Vallel, on Nov 14 2008, 10:18 PM, said:

He had no compunction with murdering his own kind for even the slightest expedience. His ambitions lead him to lust after ever greater power at the expense of all else.

Yet in MT, it was revealed that his ultimate goal from allying with the CG was to create an unassailable security and peace for his people against the rapacious Letherii.

Then after all the betrayals, murders and crimes that followed, after his significant hand in the debasement of his people as a whole, we are again shown his pov at the end of RG and despite it all his final intent is still that noble dream from the beginning, to lead his people back to their lands and live in peace with the power to defend themselves from any outside hostility.

The question is, had that ambitious and arrogant warlock from the begining of MT who ruled his people with wisdom and a strong but even hand fallen too far by the end of RG?. Almost certainly.

Well, personally I think he was a benevolent ruler (i hesitate to say 'good guy') until Rhulad took over. I had no overt qualms with him then. Once Rhulad took command, it seemed he did what would result in him not getting killed and submitted. Unlike all the K'risnan and sorcerors who are shocked when the CG abandons them, Hannan knows precisely where his power comes from and probably realized what the CG was doing with Rhulad right away. He knew that if he tried to contest Rhulad, the CG would take his power and make Rhulad kill him, so why not stay alive and see if other opportunities arise.

From that point it seems like he started making more and more desperate ploys to try and regain control over the Edur, either with making Rhulad insane, or making Rhulad delegate more power to him, or what-have-you. While his original intent might have been to bring the Edur back home, slowly his ambitions grew as he felt he needed more to protect his people, such as healing KE, etc. At this point I think is where he starts getting overly malicious, and that gradually saving his people just becomes an excuse for his own ambition, and by the end of RG he doesn't really care a whit for the Edur except for the ability to rule over them.

So, a conversion from 'good' to 'bad' I guess.

But the one thing that really gets me is: if he was such a cunning and powerful dude, why did he ever need to take the CG's power to unite the TE. I think his methods were flawed from square one, and those means do not justify his intended ends. In order for him to truly be in my good books, he would've had to have tried to unite the Edur without help from the CG.

[teholbeddict]

I agree with D'rek 's opinion here. I think Hannan Mosag truly was flawed which is what brought him to the attention of the CG in the first place and why Hannan allied himself with CG. We see repeatedly that while he may start with intentions that seem honourable or for the best of his people, he cannot help but twist or mar things due to his own thirst for power. In the end the bad streak or flaw always prevailed he could never truly put his people before himself. So I will say he was at times a good guy who could never leave behind or overcome the evil, power hungry flaws within.

This post has been edited by teholbeddict: 15 November 2008 - 11:34 PM

[Grief]

teholbeddict, on Nov 15 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

I agree with D'rek 's opinion here. I think Hannan Mosag truly was flawed which is what brought him to the attention of the CG in the first place and why Hannan allied himself with CG. We see repeatedly that while he may start with intentions that seem honourable or for the best of his people, he cannot help but twist or mar things due to his own thirst for hunger. In the end the bad streak or flaw always prevailed he could never truly put his people before himself. So I will say he was at times a good guy who could never leave behind or overcome the evil, power hungry flaws within.

Umm, what?

[teholbeddict]

Grief, on Nov 15 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

teholbeddict, on Nov 15 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

I agree with D'rek 's opinion here. I think Hannan Mosag truly was flawed which is what brought him to the attention of the CG in the first place and why Hannan allied himself with CG. We see repeatedly that while he may start with intentions that seem honourable or for the best of his people, he cannot help but twist or mar things due to his own thirst for hunger. In the end the bad streak or flaw always prevailed he could never truly put his people before himself. So I will say he was at times a good guy who could never leave behind or overcome the evil, power hungry flaws within.

Umm, what?

Oh god that should haven been power sorry! I made him sound like he's starving and parched all at the same time. I'lll edit it!

This post has been edited by teholbeddict: 15 November 2008 - 11:34 PM

[Excellence]

We finally got his pov in Reaper's Gale. He regretted what the Edur were today, and did indeed plan on betraying the Chained Bloke. But we knew that when Rhulad first confronted him. Still, you saw what he did to Bruthen Trana.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

He meant well but quite frankly he's a douchebag. He knew he was messing with chaos and worse, and he thought he could double-cross the CG. Good one, noobcake.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 17 November 2008 - 08:35 AM

[Urizen]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Nov 17 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

He meant well but quite frankly he's a douchebag. He knew he was messing with chaos and worse, and he thought he could double-cross the CG. Good one, noobcake.

Nor does he have a real clue as to what has happened with the Throne of Shadow since they lost it either. He sort meanders along thinking the Throne of Shadow should be his by deafult seeing how he's the best Tiste Edur wizard he knows about, completely ignoring the fact that current occupant of the ToS actually might have something to say about things. Also He either don't care or are completly ignorant of the fact that his actions serve the CG agenda much more than it serve his and the Tiste Edur cause.
To me Hannan Mosag was a selfish, failed "bad guy". The only reason he might get some sympathy is because Rhulad was a worse "bad guy".

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Have you noticed that in RG all he cared about was his precious water demon?

[caladanbrood]

Hannan Mosag is to me one of the character's more interesting minor characters. The way he's written, particularly, is the classic bad-guy build up, and then utter fall from grace. At no point either can you really claim his intentions were good. Yes, the CG is the series biggest baddie, and yes, Mosag intended to betray him, but why did he plan to? Well, for the betterment of his own goals, not through some altruistic "I'll save you all" mojo.

I think if we had seen the Edur Unification Wars, it might have been a different story. He was clearly, at that point, a very good leader, forcing the other tribes into one massive Edur nation, which was good for all of them, beyond all the dead. It would have been the kind of story that we could relate to in the malazan world - somewhat similar to Kellanved's founding of the Empire, to be honest. Ruthless, but pretty good overall. Of course, we all know that once the CG gets involved, things tend to go a bit wrong, and that, I think, is the lesson that the character of Hannan Mosag emphasises. His story then, is more or less just a story of how utterly the CG can corrupt a purpose to his own ends. I mean, at least the Edur didn't end up with cannibalistic hoards of necrophiles, but who knows what might have happened if Rhulad hadn't nicked the sword...

This post has been edited by caladanbrood: 17 November 2008 - 02:42 PM

[D'rek]

I wish we could see the Unification Wars... Trull recounts at one point how Hanradi and his Den-Ratha (or was it Merude?) were refusing to join up and about to put up a huge fight, and Hannan snuck into their encampment alone and somehow persuaded Hanradi (or else brainwashed him) to join the cause willingly. Indeed, it paints a very different picture of him...

Urizen, on Nov 17 2008, 05:21 AM, said:

Nor does he have a real clue as to what has happened with the Throne of Shadow since they lost it either. He sort meanders along thinking the Throne of Shadow should be his by deafult seeing how he's the best Tiste Edur wizard he knows about, completely ignoring the fact that current occupant of the ToS actually might have something to say about things. Also He either don't care or are completly ignorant of the fact that his actions serve the CG agenda much more than it serve his and the Tiste Edur cause.

But like the Letherii, he is stuck in the aftermath of Gothos' ritual all throughout MT and before, so he is unable to reach out and sense the existance of warrens like Meanas, and the ToS that now commands it. So, reaching out and sensing nothing of a ToS for KE-as-a-Hold, he logically concludes that it is lost and unoccupied and he just needs to go find it. And it is very unfortunate for him that the Edur and Lether are so isolated from the rest of the world - imagine if he could have spoken to peoples from Geneback or 7C and knew what the CG was before he allied with it...

[Urizen]

D'rek, on Nov 17 2008, 03:16 PM, said:

I wish we could see the Unification Wars... Trull recounts at one point how Hanradi and his Den-Ratha (or was it Merude?) were refusing to join up and about to put up a huge fight, and Hannan snuck into their encampment alone and somehow persuaded Hanradi (or else brainwashed him) to join the cause willingly. Indeed, it paints a very different picture of him...

Wasn't the CG working with Mosag during the Unification Wars? I felt the Unification Wars was merely the first step in the CG's plan; unify the Edur-> conquer the Lether continent-> conquer/destroy rest of the world

Urizen, on Nov 17 2008, 05:21 AM, said:

Nor does he have a real clue as to what has happened with the Throne of Shadow since they lost it either. He sort meanders along thinking the Throne of Shadow should be his by deafult seeing how he's the best Tiste Edur wizard he knows about, completely ignoring the fact that current occupant of the ToS actually might have something to say about things. Also He either don't care or are completly ignorant of the fact that his actions serve the CG agenda much more than it serve his and the Tiste Edur cause.

D'rek, on Nov 17 2008, 03:16 PM, said:

But like the Letherii, he is stuck in the aftermath of Gothos' ritual all throughout MT and before, so he is unable to reach out and sense the existance of warrens like Meanas, and the ToS that now commands it. So, reaching out and sensing nothing of a ToS for KE-as-a-Hold, he logically concludes that it is lost and unoccupied and he just needs to go find it. And it is very unfortunate for him that the Edur and Lether are so isolated from the rest of the world - imagine if he could have spoken to peoples from Geneback or 7C and knew what the CG was before he allied with it...

True to some extent.. but MT ends 1160/1161 and Gothos' ritual really start to fall apart and it's not until 1165/1166(?) at the end RG that Hannan Mosag get whacked by Huntress, giving Mosag at least some five years to become aware of the rest of the world. Yet, what does he do? He bumbles along thinking Lether is the centre of the universe with himself as the centre of Lether.

[Aptorian]

I don't think the CG has any signifiicant influence on the Edur before the Warlock King made his deals. The sword, which just so happened to fall into an edurs hands, is when the CG began the true corruption of the Edur. As... Udinass? speculates, the sword could have been picked up by any person of any of the lether cultures, it just so happened to be an edur, but it could had been a Letherii.

[Jude]

Mosag knew about it though, because the CG told him about it. Therefore it was for sure meant for the Edur. Just because there was an off-chance that a letherii could have picked it up before them don't mean squat. The Edur didn't happen upon it by accident. They quested for it.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Nov 18 2008, 08:07 PM, said:

I don't think the CG has any signifiicant influence on the Edur before the Warlock King made his deals. The sword, which just so happened to fall into an edurs hands, is when the CG began the true corruption of the Edur. As... Udinass? speculates, the sword could have been picked up by any person of any of the lether cultures, it just so happened to be an edur, but it could had been a Letherii.

actually didn't Udinaas speculate that the Edur was actively chosen because their ridgid society and the right set of flaws compared to the other?

I thought Hannan Mosag dealt with the CG before that. Didn't Mosag find out about the sword from the CG? Sure the CG don't start the true corruption of the Edur until the sword is with them but wasn't the CG working with Mosag before that? I seem to recall the CG saying he chose Rhulad for the sword because Hannan Mosag's ambitions wasn't violent enough.

[Abyss]

D'rek, on Nov 17 2008, 09:16 AM, said:

I wish we could see the Unification Wars... Trull recounts ...Hannan snuck into their encampment alone and somehow persuaded Hanradi (or else brainwashed him) to join the cause willingly. Indeed, it paints a very different picture of him...

He wasn't exactly cuddly about it - didn't Hanradi's shadow go missing after that.

Urizen, on Nov 17 2008, 05:21 AM, said:

...imagine if he could have spoken to peoples from Geneback or 7C and knew what the CG was before he allied with it...

I think the WK knew exactly who and what he was allying with. MT suggests sttrongly that once he had what he wanted, ie: power for the Edur, the WK intended to renege on his deal with the CG, which was precisely WHY Rhulad ended up with the sword - Rhulad was an easily manipulated puppet, the WK was not. The CG pre-empted the WK's betrayal and left him with no choice but to go along with Rhulad.

The WK was never a nice person - he was an ambitious dictator, albeit motivated by an interest in protecting his people from the fate of most other people the Letherii dealt with. He had the sons of of other tribes' leaders as hostage/servants, he sent the Sengar boys on what could be a suicide mission with only partial information, he enslaved a lost god and turned it into his sea demon, he wiped out the Letherii sealing fleet... this was a ruthless, ambitious man. That he had racial interests at heart only somewhat offsets this. As for the edur as a race, they were already keeping Letherii as household slaves, so let's not go too far down the noble savage route - they had flaws even before the CG turned up. Of course, once the CG's influence kicked in, they turned into kill-the-children-rape-the-women-cut-off-the-men's-limbs-and-make-them-watch sorts, which was a whole other level.

In RG, we see the WK trying to reclaim the power he lost when Rhulad usurped him, to the point that he prays to serve Mother D and 'all Tiste'. In the course of that service he sends an edur warrior searching for Brys and then kills his body, so still, not a nice person.

The WK may have been, initially, an effective leader for the Edur, but nice dude he wasn't.


- Abyss, prefers his leaders a wee touch less bloodthirsty...

[Imperial Historian]

The crippled god certainly had influence among the Edur before Rhulad took up the sword, feather witch comments on the fact that Uruth's power, indeed all the edurs magic, is stained before Rhulad retrieves the sword.

Hannan Mosag was by no means a good character as Abyss said, his actions seem to consistently be that of a ruthless ambitious leader, who none the less saw that the only route to save his people was to conquer them and join them together as one. He's rather like kelvanned in some ways, ruthlessly conquering a continent and as a side affect making it a better, safer place, but I think ambition and a thirst for power were always key parts of his persona.

[caladanbrood]

Aptorian, on Nov 18 2008, 07:07 PM, said:

I don't think the CG has any signifiicant influence on the Edur before the Warlock King made his deals. The sword, which just so happened to fall into an edurs hands, is when the CG began the true corruption of the Edur. As... Udinass? speculates, the sword could have been picked up by any person of any of the lether cultures, it just so happened to be an edur, but it could had been a Letherii.

This is definitely not true. Withal made the sword very specifically for Rhulad, it was put where it was by the CG for a very specific reason. Not the kind of place anyone would wander out and find it, out in the middle of nowhere especially defended by all those Jheck. The Edur only knew where to find it from Mosag's dream.

[Jude]

abyss I liked the thing about the shadow going missing. Was Mosag's body guard actually Hanradi's shadow? That's pretty awesome if so

[Abyss]

Imperial Historian, on Nov 18 2008, 04:24 PM, said:

The crippled god certainly had influence among the Edur before Rhulad took up the sword, feather witch comments on the fact that Uruth's power, indeed all the edurs magic, is stained before Rhulad retrieves the sword.
...

I agree that is possible, but it may also be a ref to the fact that the Edur were using, in some respect, a chunk of Kurald Galain, and not their own shattered elder warren. The Andii 'shadow wraith' souls were an example of this.

caladanbrood, on Nov 18 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

...Withal made the sword very specifically for Rhulad, it was put where it was by the CG for a very specific reason. Not the kind of place anyone would wander out and find it, out in the middle of nowhere especially defended by all those Jheck. The Edur only knew where to find it from Mosag's dream.

yes and no - it's never expressedly stated that RHULAD was to find it, altho the CG clearly manipulated events so that one way or the other, one of the Edur other than Mosag grabbed it. It's not hard to look at the events pre-Rhulad grabbing it and dying and wonder if the CG was at work, ie: Rhulad falling asleep on watch. But there were two other young Edur (forgot names) there too. I suspect the CG would have had a harder time if Trull, Fear or Bhinadas had grabbed it.

Jude, on Nov 18 2008, 06:50 PM, said:

abyss I liked the thing about the shadow going missing. Was Mosag's body guard actually Hanradi's shadow? That's pretty awesome if so

Iirc, that was it, altho Wither refers to the shadow bodyguard as a 'cretin' or something, and while Trull speculates, he never spots for certain whether Hanradi had a shadow or not. It could have beena shadow wraith playing a part. Put it this way, whether Mosag did steal Hanradi's shadow, or put a wraith in place to make it look that was, it's cool either way.


- Abyss, ...and only the shadow knows...

This post has been edited by Abyss: 19 November 2008 - 12:18 AM