[Vallel]

As a preamble I apologize in advance for no doubt bringing up previously discussed topics but that's what us late comers to the site do :/. Stop reading now if you dont want to rehash old thoughts!.

The Plot:

The jade statues appearing as meteors out of nowhere was a surprise that swiftly resolved itself with little explanation. We knew many of them were floating through space in various conditions but why their sudden arrival and then instant mitigation. - Found a good post relating to this bit http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...?showtopic=9404

The Fourteenth arrives on SC's to crush the rebellion. After the battle the unequivocal traitor Korbolo Dom is taken back to the Empress in chains by Pearl. Mallick Rell had already set off to see the Empress of his own accord and only a handful of people knew of his role in the betrayal making it possible for him to avoid suspicion.
Skip ahead, the fourteenth gets the job done and is recalled home. On the way meeting the Edur, and most importantly while passing a group of unexplored islands/land mass an army from a civilization unknown to the Malazan empire shows up wishing to pledge allegiance?, strange but stranger still this army is a holy army of Fanderay and Togg similar to the original Fenner Grey Swords on Genabackis.
How can this be? up until very recently Togg and Fanderay were mindless wanderers with no power, influence or contact with the mortal realm. Their recent ascension along with Treach to full fledged gods of war (making 3 at once, until Fenner gets his ass speared or reaffirms his wavering status) contradicts the presence of a long standing F&T cult.
There is the contradiction of Toc the Younger and the remnants of the Grey Swords already being given the 3 title roles of Mortal Sword, SA and Destriant although you could argue that each wolf has their own cult but even with that stretch it does not explain how the newcomers joining Tavore came to be or how they could of had any power previous to the recent ascension.

Moving on, so the fleet is again redirected to Malaz Island to rendezvous with the Empress. The fairly successful army arrives and all seems a little fishy.
Given the ongoing feature of the books to exclude Laseen and the heart of the empire from the story at this point the reader has no reason to suspect anything but a muted welcome home with maybe a few harsh words on certain issues from both sides.
Instead we are presented with the baffling situation of Korbolo Dom being a high fist with full power and authority and Mallick Rell sporting similar power both embedded into Laseen's side. The last of which also revealing the incredible achievement of usurping authority over the claw with Topper vanished.
Further these two vipers have been busy bee's setting up mages, Malazan soldiers and the general populace to murder the entire fourteenth army through both inciting betrayal and effecting a false accounting of the true events of the chain of dogs upon their disembarking from the fleet.

The high mage of the Empire is present through all this but does nothing O.O and we are given a brief pov from him at the end that explains little and in a fashion contradicts his sentiments and position displayed at the end of the battle for Coral.

Laseen seems to be utterly ineffectual almost to the point of being a puppet to Dom/Rell as suggested by her apparent furtive seeking of aid from Kalam and then Pearl.
The only minor revelation given is that the Wickan betrayal is for the purpose of a pretense to trample their rights as imperial citizens in order to take all the food/resources from their particular land portion to combat the impending famine resulting from the attrition of trade and resources fighting the Seven Cities rebellion.


There is almost no explanation as to how all these utterly astonishing circumstances have come to pass. It would seem during all the adventures of the books up until now, the core of the empire has been rotting into dissolution to the point the mantle of the Malazan empire has posibly been usurped by another power/group.



Other tid bits:-

It was mentioned on another forum Traveler is likely Dassem Ultor. It didn't click for me while reading but it would be very interesting to see the famous figure come to the fore. Icarium even said Traveler likely had the potential to defeat him 1on1 which if true would put Dassem right at the pinnacle of the power scale of all entities residing in the Malazan world.

Shadowthrone intimates he is of the opinion that Apsalar has surpassed Cotillion in the deady arts. Perhaps not in single target killing but in the department of mass killing large groups of competent opponents with lightning swiftness. The epitome of deadly beauty?.

Poor old Heboric. Thinking back on everything he went through, is there any other who has suffered as much as him, both spiritually and physically?. He endured relentless torment of body and soul beginning even before his introduction.

The warrens were heavily poisoned and almost unusable by the end of HoC. MT shifts to a different land using separate edler magic. Then in BH everyone is using warrens again. Am I forgetting an event/explanation for the cleansing of the warrens or is there abit of a plot hole here?.

Fiddler, Gesler, Stormy and Braven Tooth in that house. At first I thought Fiddler had some specific intent, perhaps his song held some kind of power. When it turned out to be simply 3 really crusty veterans meeting up with their original drill sergeant to speak of and remember old friends/comrades i found it to be a touchingly solemn and deep event.


Gonna pick up Reapers Gale tomrorrow.

This post has been edited by Vallel: 10 November 2008 - 05:35 AM

[D'rek]

Throughout your post I couldn't decide if you were asking for explanations or just musing on the book... so, did you want some pseudo-explanations on the parts you infered are confusing?

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

This post has been edited by D'rek: 10 November 2008 - 02:08 AM

[Vallel]

D'rek, on Nov 10 2008, 02:06 AM, said:

Throughout your post I couldn't decide if you were asking for explanations or just musing on the book... so, did you want some pseudo-explanations on the parts you infered are confusing?

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Thanks

I guess I sort of rambled with both.

Any explanations or gaps you could fill in for me would be great.

[D'rek]

Allright, I'll take a crack at it.

The thing with tBH is that it is jam-packed. Not only is there two major battle-events, but it's also the coming together of many aspects of the Genebackis books, the Edur storyline and the conclusion to the 7Cs storyline. Plus there's a ton of cameos from Night of Knives and a couple from MT and previously un-connected parts of HoC. And then finally, of course, there needs to be set-ups for later novels and storylines. So much info crammed in means that there are indeed confusing parts, most of which are either set-ups for the future or are just not yet explained. The constant sense of something crazy going on, though, makes you feel strange when something ineffectual like the Fall of the Jade Statues occurs...

Vallel, on Nov 9 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

The jade statues appearing as meteors out of nowhere was a surprise that swiftly resolved itself with little explanation. We knew many of them were floating through space in various conditions but why their sudden arrival and then instant mitigation.

Well, they had to be dealt with at some point, and not every storyline can have an epic conclusion, or else we wouldn't love SE as much as we do... the key part to this was the revelation that Heboric was the Shield Anvil and not the Destriant, at which point you're supposed to say aloud "OMG I didn't see that coming!", but really it's not that exciting...
Speculating about what Paran promised Hood, and thinking about Cartheron Crust's internal monologue that the last time he saw something similar it made a mountain of otataral, now those might be enough to keep your mojo going about this. And of course we still don't have much of a clue about what the Jade and its statues really *are*. And if that's not enough, some people like to speculate further about related things, such as Heboric being inside Chaur now, or silly stuff like that...

Vallel, on Nov 9 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

[...]and most importantly while passing a group of unexplored islands/land mass an army from a civilization unknown to the Malazan empire shows up wishing to pledge allegiance?, strange but stranger still this army is a holy army of Fanderay and Togg similar to the original Fenner Grey Swords on Genabackis.
How can this be? up until very recently Togg and Fanderay were mindless wanderers with no power, influence or contact with the mortal realm. Their recent ascension along with Treach to full fledged gods of war (making 3 at once, until Fenner gets his ass speared or reaffirms his wavering status) contradicts the presence of a long standing F&T cult.
There is the contradiction of Toc the Younger and the remnants of the Grey Swords already being given the 3 title roles of Mortal Sword, SA and Destriant although you could argue that each wolf has their own cult but even with that stretch it does not explain how the newcomers joining Tavore came to be or how they could of had any power previous to the recent ascension.

Well they could have had power long before they were sworn to T&F. Especially since they're neighbours with an expansionist kingdom like Nemil and a magically-powerful place like Shal-Morzinn. And yes, it is quite possible T&F each have their own army, this is reinforced for many people by the way the MS, Destriant and SA genders are reversed between the Grey Helms and Grey Swords.
Finally... read on and find out!

Vallel, on Nov 9 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

The high mage of the Empire is present through all this but does nothing O.O and we are given a brief pov from him at the end that explains little and in a fashion contradicts his sentiments and position displayed at the end of the battle for Coral.

Coral is the exception to the rule for Tayschrenn. Generally he prefers to sit on his butt and watch things unfold, though of course when he's attached to an army he'll stir his mojo and batter down city walls with fire and stuff, just to keep in practice...

Vallel, on Nov 9 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

Laseen seems to be utterly ineffectual almost to the point of being a puppet to Dom/Rell as suggested by her apparent furtive seeking of aid from Kalam and then Pearl.
The only minor revelation given is that the Wickan betrayal is for the purpose of a pretense to trample their rights as imperial citizens in order to take all the food/resources from their particular land portion to combat the impending famine resulting from the attrition of trade and resources fighting the Seven Cities rebellion.

The mystery of Laseen shifts in tBH from the mysteriousness of never being encountered to the mysteriousness of being encountered but not doing anything that makes much sense. Just wait until you read Return of the Crimson Guard, you'll have a huge "Wtf?!" moment...

Vallel, on Nov 9 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

There is almost no explanation as to how all these utterly astonishing circumstances have come to pass. It would seem during all the adventures of the books up until now, the core of the empire has been rotting into dissolution to the point the mantle of the Malazan empire has been usurped by another power/group.

Well, they're stuck in wars with Caladan Brood, Rake and his hordes of Andii and the Crimson Guard. Then there's the Dryjhna rebellion, and things start going sour in Korel, not to mention internal problems with the nobels paying their way into the army and thus decreasing the empire's military efficacy. Then their coastal borders and fleets start getting engaged by the Edur fleets...
it hasn't been a good few years for the empire. I wouldn't say it's the core of the empire rotting, i'd say it's the whole empire having a recession. Doesn't need to be any powers or groups overall responsible...

Vallel, on Nov 9 2008, 08:53 PM, said:

The warrens were heavily poisoned and almost unusable by the end of HoC. MT shifts to a different land using separate edler magic. Then in BH everyone is using warrens again. Am I forgetting an event/explanation for the cleansing of the warrens or is there abit of a plot hole here?.

-The poisoning of the warrens in MoI was from the Crippled God and performed through the Pannion empire. Following MoI, not only did the destruction of the Pannion empire reduce the CG's influence on the warrens, but Hood and other ascendants struck back to cleanse them, and Pannion himself is now in Burn's lair slowing the CG's poison with Omtose Phellack.
-In HoC the warrens work fine, as evinced by Bottle, Balgrid, Tavos Pond, Mallick Rel, Quick Ben, Febryl, Henaras and others all using their warrens effectively.
-MT takes place on the Lether continent where a ritual woven long ago by Gothos has frozen all manner of things, including the progression of magic. The ritual doesn't cover the whole continent, but it does cover pretty much the entire area seen in MT. As such, everyone in those areas only use Holds, older forms of magic that predate the Warrens. The Edur use part of Kurald Emurlahn, the Elder Warren of Shadow, and also chaotic magic from the Crippled God.
-tBH, being back on Seven Cities, means warrens are the standard magic. Kurald Emurlahn and the CG's magic are accessible everywhere, so the Edur can still use it away from Lether when they run into the 14th Army.

[Vallel]

Thanks for your responses D'rek.

I had forgotten Pannion had gone to help Burn at the end of HoC. I did not know he and his sorcerers were the specific conduit through which the CG was effecting his attack on the warrens.


I still think something is fishy with Laseen and the heart of the empire. As I said before its pretty much a feature that this has barely been looked at.

Apart from Laseen herself SE has never gone into the ruling structure and personages such a large empire by perforce demands. We have Tayschrenn, Laseen, her secret police the Claw and then all the characters and personalities of the forces spread around the globe. There are huge gaps in command and structure for the empire at home on Quon Tali.

How did a bald faced traitor and a random priest infiltrate through all levels of the Malazan heirachry and in general how did the centre of the empire end up in such a dire state.

This post has been edited by Vallel: 10 November 2008 - 03:40 AM

[Silencer]

The history and current situation of the Empire was, I believe, not meant to be SE's domain. That has been left to ICE. He deals with that more in Night of Knives and Return of the Crimson Guard. I don't think we can ever expect a total outline of the Empire's command structure, however.

Suffice it to say, it goes something like this:

Emperor/Empress
Clawmaster,High Mage, High Fist (or First Sword, if the title is in use)
Fist, members of the Claw
Local mayor's/whatever

And down from there. It's not very detailed, and what I've posted is a gross over-simplification. But it's the general idea.


Regarding Korbolo and Rel...Mallick is a Jhistal Priest of Mael - he has the use of Elder sorcery channeled directly from the God. He cannot be defeated with Otataral, and is too powerful for the Claw to attack him. So he managed to...convince...Laseen that he was too powerful for her to control. Plus, he managed to infiltrate the Claw, by finding members who had some resentment of Laseen and turning them against her. Korbolo Dom was merely part of the package. He also decided that, in order for the Wickan plains to be turned into agricultural land, Coltaine needed to be brought down. In order for this to happen, the name of his enemy had to be raised up.
Hence the problem she faced.

[Vallel]

Silencer, on Nov 10 2008, 04:21 AM, said:

The history and current situation of the Empire was, I believe, not meant to be SE's domain. That has been left to ICE. He deals with that more in Night of Knives and Return of the Crimson Guard. I don't think we can ever expect a total outline of the Empire's command structure, however.

Suffice it to say, it goes something like this:

Emperor/Empress
Clawmaster,High Mage, High Fist (or First Sword, if the title is in use)
Fist, members of the Claw
Local mayor's/whatever

And down from there. It's not very detailed, and what I've posted is a gross over-simplification. But it's the general idea.


Regarding Korbolo and Rel...Mallick is a Jhistal Priest of Mael - he has the use of Elder sorcery channeled directly from the God. He cannot be defeated with Otataral, and is too powerful for the Claw to attack him. So he managed to...convince...Laseen that he was too powerful for her to control. Plus, he managed to infiltrate the Claw, by finding members who had some resentment of Laseen and turning them against her. Korbolo Dom was merely part of the package. He also decided that, in order for the Wickan plains to be turned into agricultural land, Coltaine needed to be brought down. In order for this to happen, the name of his enemy had to be raised up.
Hence the problem she faced.

Interesting thoughts.

You are attaching a very large level of power to Mallick Rell that I think has not ostensibly been demonstrated. I over simplify but it seems highly implausible he just walzted into the heart of the empire and no one could stop him taking over.
I would think Elder sorcery is not necessarily superior to warrem sorcery. From what I recall it is more primal meaning its uses are far more limited. It's really good at simple brute force power for example. But force is far from everything.
If you are alert and fast you can blast an enemy to mush, but you can be tricked, deceived, outmaneuvered, caught by surprise etc and lose easily enough against a competent warren user.

Also the relationship with Mael is surely highly ambiguous?. Clearly his priests are granted some power but Mael himself currently lives as a human manservant and shows strong indifference to events outside what happens in his vicinity. There have been many hints and suggestions that Mael has been almost entirely inactive for a very long time.
It seems to me he merely pays lip service to his priests.

This post has been edited by Vallel: 10 November 2008 - 04:50 AM

[Silencer]

Ah. However, remember Pearl's thoughts about how he would probably be dead before he could act if he tried to take on Rel? And also how his abode was noted to have many wards.

The inattention of Mael actually gives the Jhistal more control over his power. As Mael is not paying attention to who does what - he is at the mercy of his worshipers.

And note also Quick Ben's reaction to all the deadly traps Mael had laid. He either has access to Ruse as well as his Elder Jhistal sorcery, or he can fashion it into a more subtle form.

While he is not shown to be ridiculously powerful, a mage is very hard to combat when Otataral has no effect on them. And he also has the Claw on his side, protecting him. Making him very dangerous. Especially when that removes Laseen's two most powerful weapons - Otataral and the Claws. How is she supposed to kill him?

Tayschrenn, for certain, would wipe the floor with Mallick, as would Quick Ben. However, the Claw's not only complicate things, but Tay is, as D'rek said, not particularly active. He is more of a watcher, he fancies himself as Neutral. He does not participate in the power struggles of the Throne.

[Vallel]

Silencer, on Nov 10 2008, 04:49 AM, said:

Ah. However, remember Pearl's thoughts about how he would probably be dead before he could act if he tried to take on Rel? And also how his abode was noted to have many wards.

I think that thought from Pearl was specifically about attacking him imminently in that room rather than in general. Could be wrong there. Also Pearl had fallen quite far at this point, he was unsure of alot of things probably his own abilities.

Quote

The inattention of Mael actually gives the Jhistal more control over his power. As Mael is not paying attention to who does what - he is at the mercy of his worshipers.

That could be an accurate way of looking at things.

Quote

And note also Quick Ben's reaction to all the deadly traps Mael had laid. He either has access to Ruse as well as his Elder Jhistal sorcery, or he can fashion it into a more subtle form.

It's possible they were not Rell's traps. It didn't go into numbers but it was clear there were more than a few hostile magi present in the city working a lot of magic in preparation for the murder of the fourteenth.

Quote

While he is not shown to be ridiculously powerful, a mage is very hard to combat when Otataral has no effect on them. And he also has the Claw on his side, protecting him. Making him very dangerous. Especially when that removes Laseen's two most powerful weapons - Otataral and the Claws. How is she supposed to kill him?

Upon his arrival he had no Claw influence and it would of taken time to elicit it. Time he was obviously granted leave to make use of for some reason. We have seen before that mages no matter how powerful can die to a simple arrow in the chest or poison or any manner of mundane attacks. I just feel that Rell would of been far to isolated even with some traitorous Claws to gain as much as he appears to have done and live.

SE has already shown some of the Claw turned. But I would like to elaborate on past depictions how the Claw are a cult and like real life cults are subject to fanatic loyalty and zeal beyond normal reason. Such organizations are notoroiusly difficult to compromise. While we read about a few turncoats, based on past representation I would like to assume that the vast majority of the oragnisation could not of been turned. As such, with purely speculation on my part I think Rell's support and power from the Claw is very limited.

Quote

Tayschrenn, for certain, would wipe the floor with Mallick, as would Quick Ben. However, the Claw's not only complicate things, but Tay is, as D'rek said, not particularly active. He is more of a watcher, he fancies himself as Neutral. He does not participate in the power struggles of the Throne.

Tayschrenn the character is getting on my nerves at this point. The man's apathy and blunders are having vast repurcussions on the empire. As the highest ranking mage in the empire he has alot of responsibility that he is repeatedly not living up to.
As was said earlier, some consider his stint at Coral was little more than a brief guilt trip to absolve his conscience of Pale?.

Someone kill him already.

This post has been edited by Vallel: 10 November 2008 - 05:18 AM

[Silencer]

You are vastly underestimating the extent of the Claw's infiltration, I'm afraid. This is revealed in later/other books, (I'm thinking specifically of Return, here), so I won't go into it. But they are severely compromised.

The traps were mostly pointed out as "pockets of Ruse, area's of deep water with crushing pressure" - considering Ruse is the hardest warren to master, I would have to imagine the chances of there being more than one mage with the ability to create such traps in Malaz City at one time to be incredibly small.

Pearl was shown as fearing the power of Rell twice - once in the Jhistal's private room, again in the meeting with Tavore. He was feared by Pearl. Also consider that Laseen is an accomplished assassin herself, and sees no way to defeat Rell.

A lot of this...isn't clear. It's partly hinted at in other books, and can only be seen/deduced by very carefully reading them. A lot of SE's stuff is like that, and either left unexplained, or the explanation has to be worked out - often unsatisfactorily. Sadly, there are certain aspects of plot that we can't get into here. It's good to go over it again with a fine-toothed comb, and at least this isn't one of the discussion's that has been done to death!

[Vallel]

Silencer, on Nov 10 2008, 05:45 AM, said:

You are vastly underestimating the extent of the Claw's infiltration, I'm afraid. This is revealed in later/other books, (I'm thinking specifically of Return, here), so I won't go into it. But they are severely compromised.

The traps were mostly pointed out as "pockets of Ruse, area's of deep water with crushing pressure" - considering Ruse is the hardest warren to master, I would have to imagine the chances of there being more than one mage with the ability to create such traps in Malaz City at one time to be incredibly small.

Pearl was shown as fearing the power of Rell twice - once in the Jhistal's private room, again in the meeting with Tavore. He was feared by Pearl. Also consider that Laseen is an accomplished assassin herself, and sees no way to defeat Rell.

A lot of this...isn't clear. It's partly hinted at in other books, and can only be seen/deduced by very carefully reading them. A lot of SE's stuff is like that, and either left unexplained, or the explanation has to be worked out - often unsatisfactorily. Sadly, there are certain aspects of plot that we can't get into here. It's good to go over it again with a fine-toothed comb, and at least this isn't one of the discussion's that has been done to death!

Oh well, that's a shame about the Claw.
Laseen should of fostered a more aggressive cult of personality into it.


If the Ruse traps were Rell's, does that make him a high mage aswell as a high priest?.

This post has been edited by Vallel: 10 November 2008 - 11:28 AM

[D'rek]

High priests of the more advanced religions tend to have magical capabilities, ostensibly from their god. So a priest of Mael definitely has Ruse power, but a high-level priest can have more than just their god's warren too, like Banaschar has sensitivities to all magics and also uses Mockra in Malaz City as well. The difference is that the priest's power comes from their god whereas a mage takes it from the warren. Mael being inhis turned-away state means that he doesn't limit how his priests use their Ruse-power, but it also lets Mael do whatever he wants and the expectations of his priests don't force him like they would an active god...

[Dunhallym]

Hi,
so I just finished the Bonehunters, and I was also a bit confused about a few things. A few of my questions have already been answered/discussed here or in other subjects but I have a couple more.
I want to tell that I have not read yet NoK and RotCG, I should recieve the first one on monday, so I'll probably read it before I proceed with RG since apparently it would even have been better to read it before the Bonehunters.
Those questions might have answers in previous books. I've only read them once, and quite spaced, so I don't remember everything.

I'll start with some little questions about Stormy. When the T'lan Imass (Legana Breed, or something like that) comes to take back his/her sword, s/he calls him Shield Anvil. None of the characters present (Fid, Gesler, Stormy and Braven Tooth) look surprised at this name. We knew that after their Warren's travel in DG Gesler, Stormy and Truth were not completely human anymore, and I took that to mean they were on the path to ascendency even if they were not ascendants.
So : do we know to which gods Stormy is Shield Anvil (or do we leanr it later)? Could it be that he became Treach's Shield Anvil upon Heboric's and Truth's death? How can this relate to his status as not-completely mortal? Because as far as I can tell, the other Mortal Swords/Destriants/Shield Anvils we met were perfectly mortal in spite of their powers/abilities.
BTW, till now we met MS, Destriants and SA only for war gods. Apart from Mael, since the title Jhistal is described as the Elder equivalent of Destriant. Can other gods also have them?

The Jhistal part brings me to much more complex questions regarding Mallick Rell, Korbolo Dom and Laseen.
As I understood it, Laseen wanted to get rid of the Wickans to claim their lands and make culture instead of pastures. She decided to use Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rell against the Wickans, which turned a bit against her in the end, and finally she was planning on getting her Claws to kill the 2 bastards.
Actually I hope that there is some more explanations than that (apparently we learn more in RitCG ?) because I find it a bit weak (but it's possible I missed some point, so be welcome to bring them up to me).
I have no difficulties understanding Korbolo Dom. He seems to be the kind to turn his coat as often as it suits him.
What I don't get at all is Mallick Rell's role in all of that. From what we learn from Tavore's speach at the end of the book, there once was a "Gedorian Falari cult of the Jhistal" which was eradicated by Kellanved. First, it's maybe my not so good English, but does it mean that the Jhistal were the subject of the cult? If not, then does it mean that there were several Jhistal, i-e Destriants of Elder gods, in Falar ? But then I thought that Elder gods didn't have followers anymore ? Well, obviously I'm confused.

Second, Mallick Rell is a High Priest of Mael. From what I get he seeks to destroy the Malazan Empire, which could be understandable according to what Tavore reveals (revenge and all that). What I have more troubles to see is the role of Mael in all of that.
The Malazan Empire seems to be somewhat crucial in the struggle against the Crippled God, which is why (if my memory is correct) Shadowthrone and Cotillion put aside their revenge against Laseen. Shai'k's rebellion was obviously manipulated by the CG. From what we see in MT, Mael doesn't seem to be an ally of the Crippled God. Other Elder gods have taken a stance against the CG. And at the end of MT, Mael has revealed himself and seems to have decided to take a more active part in what happens. So I'm wondering about Mael's stance on all this :
- has he decided to help the CG, hence the actions of Mallick Rell?
- is he against the CG and in that case why does he permit Mallick Rell to act as he wants?
- is he somehow neutral ?
The answer to those questions may well be : read Reaper's Gale, but in case I've missed some things, or people understand things differently from me, I still ask them.

OK, I'll stop here. I have a lot more interrogations, but part of what I absolutely love about this series is that we have to wait/dig for the answers. And obviously we will never get all the answers for there are too many questions...

[D'rek]

Allrighty, let's do this bit by bit.

Dunhallym, on Feb 7 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

Hi,
so I just finished the Bonehunters, and I was also a bit confused about a few things. A few of my questions have already been answered/discussed here or in other subjects but I have a couple more.
I want to tell that I have not read yet NoK and RotCG, I should recieve the first one on monday, so I'll probably read it before I proceed with RG since apparently it would even have been better to read it before the Bonehunters.
Those questions might have answers in previous books. I've only read them once, and quite spaced, so I don't remember everything.

The order of NoK isn't really that important, about the only significance of the order for it is whether you read it before or after tBH, so read it before or after RG at your own whim.

Dunhallym, on Feb 7 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

I'll start with some little questions about Stormy. When the T'lan Imass (Legana Breed, or something like that) comes to take back his/her sword, s/he calls him Shield Anvil. None of the characters present (Fid, Gesler, Stormy and Braven Tooth) look surprised at this name. We knew that after their Warren's travel in DG Gesler, Stormy and Truth were not completely human anymore, and I took that to mean they were on the path to ascendency even if they were not ascendants.
So : do we know to which gods Stormy is Shield Anvil (or do we leanr it later)? Could it be that he became Treach's Shield Anvil upon Heboric's and Truth's death? How can this relate to his status as not-completely mortal? Because as far as I can tell, the other Mortal Swords/Destriants/Shield Anvils we met were perfectly mortal in spite of their powers/abilities.

First of all, I think some of the characters are surprised at the title, they just don't show it much. Something along the lines of Fiddler giving Gesler a weird look and Gesler raising his eyebrows. Those marines are just so full of emotion...

In any case, we don't really know what's with that whole Stormy-the-Shield-Anvil bit. Yet. My hypothesis up to this point in my reading was that it was from DG, when Heboric healed Stormy's thigh by shoving a ghost hand into the wound. Fener's tattooing then spread outward from Stormy's wound across part of his thigh. Heboric says after that something passed through into Stormy. I hypothesized (then) that this is related to him being labeled SA by Legana.

However, there is no definitive proof for anything.

Dunhallym, on Feb 7 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

BTW, till now we met MS, Destriants and SA only for war gods. Apart from Mael, since the title Jhistal is described as the Elder equivalent of Destriant. Can other gods also have them?

Other gods can have them. I'm not 100% sure Jhistal is an older term for Destriant though. Anyone got that quote handy?

Dunhallym, on Feb 7 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

What I don't get at all is Mallick Rell's role in all of that. From what we learn from Tavore's speach at the end of the book, there once was a "Gedorian Falari cult of the Jhistal" which was eradicated by Kellanved. First, it's maybe my not so good English, but does it mean that the Jhistal were the subject of the cult? If not, then does it mean that there were several Jhistal, i-e Destriants of Elder gods, in Falar ? But then I thought that Elder gods didn't have followers anymore ? Well, obviously I'm confused.

Mallick Rel's bit is more mortal than you think. His role in the betrayal of Coltaine instiagates him and so they locked him up like Korbolo, and he's since weasled his way out of it and gained influence among the nobles and Malaz leadership. His Jhistal-Gedorian-Falari bit is not really of importance to that, though it makes him less susceptible to brute attacks.

And yes, the cult was wiped out, but there are still a few stray survivors, such as himself.

Dunhallym, on Feb 7 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

Second, Mallick Rell is a High Priest of Mael. From what I get he seeks to destroy the Malazan Empire, which could be understandable according to what Tavore reveals (revenge and all that). What I have more troubles to see is the role of Mael in all of that.
The Malazan Empire seems to be somewhat crucial in the struggle against the Crippled God, which is why (if my memory is correct) Shadowthrone and Cotillion put aside their revenge against Laseen. Shai'k's rebellion was obviously manipulated by the CG. From what we see in MT, Mael doesn't seem to be an ally of the Crippled God. Other Elder gods have taken a stance against the CG. And at the end of MT, Mael has revealed himself and seems to have decided to take a more active part in what happens. So I'm wondering about Mael's stance on all this :
- has he decided to help the CG, hence the actions of Mallick Rell?
- is he against the CG and in that case why does he permit Mallick Rell to act as he wants?
- is he somehow neutral ?
The answer to those questions may well be : read Reaper's Gale, but in case I've missed some things, or people understand things differently from me, I still ask them.

1. Mallick doesn't necessarily want to destroy the empire. As per him and Korbolo taking high positions in the empire at the end of the book, it would seem that instead they seek to subvert the empire and continue their nefarious schemes and corruptions at an even higher level than they had in 7C.

2. The actions of a single follower/priest of a god (in this case Mael), don't necessarily represent the actions of the God himself. Mael is over in Lether doing his won bit. Likewise, all of D'rek's priests wanted her to side with the CG, but she still got to choose differently and slaughtered them all instead (yay!), so gods aren't even necessarily 100% compelled when all their priests choose a certain path.

Hope that all helps!

[HoosierDaddy]

D'rek, on Feb 7 2009, 10:19 PM, said:

Allrighty, let's do this bit by bit.

Dunhallym, on Feb 7 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

I'll start with some little questions about Stormy. When the T'lan Imass (Legana Breed, or something like that) comes to take back his/her sword, s/he calls him Shield Anvil. None of the characters present (Fid, Gesler, Stormy and Braven Tooth) look surprised at this name. We knew that after their Warren's travel in DG Gesler, Stormy and Truth were not completely human anymore, and I took that to mean they were on the path to ascendency even if they were not ascendants.
So : do we know to which gods Stormy is Shield Anvil (or do we leanr it later)? Could it be that he became Treach's Shield Anvil upon Heboric's and Truth's death? How can this relate to his status as not-completely mortal? Because as far as I can tell, the other Mortal Swords/Destriants/Shield Anvils we met were perfectly mortal in spite of their powers/abilities.

First of all, I think some of the characters are surprised at the title, they just don't show it much. Something along the lines of Fiddler giving Gesler a weird look and Gesler raising his eyebrows. Those marines are just so full of emotion...

In any case, we don't really know what's with that whole Stormy-the-Shield-Anvil bit. Yet. My hypothesis up to this point in my reading was that it was from DG, when Heboric healed Stormy's thigh by shoving a ghost hand into the wound. Fener's tattooing then spread outward from Stormy's wound across part of his thigh. Heboric says after that something passed through into Stormy. I hypothesized (then) that this is related to him being labeled SA by Legana.

However, there is no definitive proof for anything.

I think Stormy and Gesler are Mortal Sword and Shield Anvils of either Thryllan or Tellan. The whole "bathed in the fires of Tellan where eleint build up immunities", combined with the way they look, combined with the memory of Stormy or Gesler (can't remember which) being "the" fire in the TBH underneath Y'ghatan scene leaves me leaning way away from Fener and way towards Tellan or Thryllan.

[Dunhallym]

Thanks for your quick answers.

D'rek, on Feb 8 2009, 04:19 AM, said:

First of all, I think some of the characters are surprised at the title, they just don't show it much. Something along the lines of Fiddler giving Gesler a weird look and Gesler raising his eyebrows. Those marines are just so full of emotion...

In any case, we don't really know what's with that whole Stormy-the-Shield-Anvil bit. Yet. My hypothesis up to this point in my reading was that it was from DG, when Heboric healed Stormy's thigh by shoving a ghost hand into the wound. Fener's tattooing then spread outward from Stormy's wound across part of his thigh. Heboric says after that something passed through into Stormy. I hypothesized (then) that this is related to him being labeled SA by Legana.

However, there is no definitive proof for anything.

Yeah, you are right, Fiddler is surprised and looks at Braven Tooth, not Gesler, who just shakes his head. But I think that if Stormy had been surprised, or Gesler, he would have asked the question.
Your explanation makes sense, but the end of the Grey Swords in MOI makes it look like there can't be SA of Fener at the moment. But that's my interpretation. And since Treach has since claimed Heboric, it may be possible that Stormy becomes Treach's SA. Well, we'll probably know later I guess.

Quote

Dunhallym, on Feb 7 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

BTW, till now we met MS, Destriants and SA only for war gods. Apart from Mael, since the title Jhistal is described as the Elder equivalent of Destriant. Can other gods also have them?

Other gods can have them. I'm not 100% sure Jhistal is an older term for Destriant though. Anyone got that quote handy?

It's in the glossary at the end of the Bonehunters (at least in my edition):
Jhistal : a High Priest of an Elder God who employs human blood in ritual magic (Elder equivalent to Destriant)

Quote

1. Mallick doesn't necessarily want to destroy the empire. As per him and Korbolo taking high positions in the empire at the end of the book, it would seem that instead they seek to subvert the empire and continue their nefarious schemes and corruptions at an even higher level than they had in 7C.

2. The actions of a single follower/priest of a god (in this case Mael), don't necessarily represent the actions of the God himself. Mael is over in Lether doing his won bit. Likewise, all of D'rek's priests wanted her to side with the CG, but she still got to choose differently and slaughtered them all instead (yay!), so gods aren't even necessarily 100% compelled when all their priests choose a certain path.

I had forgotten something about Mael: at the end of MT, he frees 2 prisonners of the CG, which seems to indicate that he's moving rather against than with the CG.
1) You are probably right. They seem to want to subvert rather than destroy.
2) That's not what I was meaning. What I meant is that if Mael has chosen to oppose the CG, then why does he do nothing about Mallick Rel? Because Mallick Rel is not only a simple priest, he is at least a High Priest, and maybe an eqsuivalent of a Destriant, and he'zs in a position to hurt quite badly the opposants of the CG (even if we have no direct evidence that MR works for the CG knowingly).

Quote

Hope that all helps!

Yeah, thanks.

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 8 2009, 04:43 AM, said:

I think Stormy and Gesler are Mortal Sword and Shield Anvils of either Thryllan or Tellan. The whole "bathed in the fires of Tellan where eleint build up immunities", combined with the way they look, combined with the memory of Stormy or Gesler (can't remember which) being "the" fire in the TBH underneath Y'ghatan scene leaves me leaning way away from Fener and way towards Tellan or Thryllan.

That makes sense to me as well, which is why I asked if other gods can have MS, Destriants or SA.

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 7 2009, 10:43 PM, said:

I think Stormy and Gesler are Mortal Sword and Shield Anvils of either Thryllan or Tellan. The whole "bathed in the fires of Tellan where eleint build up immunities", combined with the way they look, combined with the memory of Stormy or Gesler (can't remember which) being "the" fire in the TBH underneath Y'ghatan scene leaves me leaning way away from Fener and way towards Tellan or Thryllan.

That's silly. First of all, you don't get MS/Des/SAs of warrens. It just doesn't happen. Warrens aren't alive and sentient so they don't have mortal champions. Hasn't happened yet, ain't likely to happen anytime soon.

Secondly, if passing through Kurald Thyrllan made you a Shield Anvil or whatever, then that list would also have to include Felisin, Heboric, Kulp, Baudin, Truth, Pearl and Lostara Yil, plus probably some more too. If Heboric was already the Destriant of Kurald Thyrllan, how would Treach have claimed him? Oh I see, Treach had a mud wrestling match with the entire warren and won and got Heboric as a prize...

Thirdly, the TL live in that warren. We now have an entire race of Brukhalian-like figures.

Fourth, Gesler had a druggy ream where he was a bonfire being danced around by Eres or Imass or some other primitives. This doesn't relate. It's probably just some drug-addled dream brought on by his growing dislike for fire.

[HoosierDaddy]

D'rek, the rest of those characters bailed before the ship left the Nascent and went into Tellan. So, that counter-argument is wrong.

Secondly, Tellan still exists as a warren. All warrens have gods. They simply do, even if we don't know who they are. The Imass have no mortals capable of carrying any of these positions, except for Silverfox who I'm guessing is like a Destriant. There is precedent for beings of another form being the MS, SA, or Destriant. It isn't nearly as far fetched as you think.

Third, we'll exclude Thryllan then, and simply make it Tellan. That throws out any connectiosn to Kurald Lioshan which is evidently causing seizures on your end.

Finally, so SE just wrote an entire section about drug-addled dreams, with elements of truth in them for no reason whatsoever?

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 08 February 2009 - 06:59 PM

[Aptorian]

The Imass bit is obviously a play on the Imass worshipping fire. Like our ancient forefathers that invented fire.

[D'rek]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 8 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

D'rek, the rest of those characters bailed before the ship left the Nascent and went into Tellan. So, that counter-argument is wrong.

Olar Ethil spent about 3 seconds in the fires to purge the shadows on her. Felisin, Baudin, Heboric and Kulp stuck around while the entire ship burned and the wave passed over them. Plus Baudin and Kulp were burnished in the same manner as Gesler, Stormy and Truth.

And that still leaves Lostara Yil and Pearl unexplained.

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 8 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

Secondly, Tellan still exists as a warren. All warrens have gods. They simply do, even if we don't know who they are. The Imass have no mortals capable of carrying any of these positions, except for Silverfox who I'm guessing is like a Destriant. There is precedent for beings of another form being the MS, SA, or Destriant. It isn't nearly as far fetched as you think.

Care to give some examples of these precedents? Saying someone is like a position doesn't make them it. Silverfox is not a Destriant, she is a mortal Bonecaster with the power to end the Ritual, but she doesn't do anything similar to the healing feats of Heboric, Run'Thurvian or Karnadas.

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 8 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

Third, we'll exclude Thryllan then, and simply make it Tellan. That throws out any connectiosn to Kurald Lioshan which is evidently causing seizures on your end.

But it *was* Kurald Thyrllan. The TL were pissed at Gesler and co. for passing through KT without permission and hunted them up to the end of HoC.

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 8 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

Finally, so SE just wrote an entire section about drug-addled dreams, with elements of truth in them for no reason whatsoever?

Gesler's dream wasn't even presented in that section with the others, it was told off-hand later on in the book, thus any importance of the other dreams is severed from Gesler's in this manner. Secondly, you shouldn't take every little thing like that to have supreme significance. You think Cuttle is now the Mortal Sword of Treach because he witnessed Treach's death?

This post has been edited by D'rek: 08 February 2009 - 08:07 PM