[Tiste Simeon]

Oh my flipping days started reading Heroes Die today and it motherfluffing rocks! I love it so hard!

[Salt-Man Z]

polishgenius, on 10 July 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Firstly the fact that it's only half a story was a bit fucking wank, wasn't it?

I'm not sure what else he could have done here, really, especially seeing what Caine's Law became. Most two-part stories, you could combine into a single edition at a later date. Not so with CBK and CL. They are very much two distinctly-different novels.

In fact, I'd argue that CBK gives you one (Then) and a half (Now) stories. That makes it better.

[polishgenius]

Salt-Man Z, on 05 August 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

I'm not sure what else he could have done here, really, especially seeing what Caine's Law became. Most two-part stories, you could combine into a single edition at a later date. Not so with CBK and CL. They are very much two distinctly-different novels.

Absolutely, having read Caine's Law, CBK makes a great deal more sense.

[Vengeance]

polishgenius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 05 August 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

I'm not sure what else he could have done here, really, especially seeing what Caine's Law became. Most two-part stories, you could combine into a single edition at a later date. Not so with CBK and CL. They are very much two distinctly-different novels.

Absolutely, having batshit fucking inhaling Caine's Law, CBK makes a great deal of skull fucking more motherfucking sense.

Fixed

[Aptorian]

I've been wondering something. What is Jonathan Fist a reference to? Originally I thought he referred to "Iron Fist" from the Marvel comics but the name doesn't quite fit. Is it an in universe joke we're not supposed to get?

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 06 August 2013 - 06:19 PM

[Vengeance]

Aptorius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I've been wondering something. What is Jonathan Fist a reference to? Originally I thought he referred to "Iron Fist" from the Marvel comics but the name doesn't quite fit. Is it an in universe joke we're not supposed to get?

I thought that it was just the first motherfucking name that he went by when he first went to overworld. Before he was cain. When he was doing monastery training or something.

[Aptorian]

Wasn't that Dominic Shade?

Now I have confused myself.

[Abyss]

Aptorius, on 08 July 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Finished the fourth book last week.

A phenomenal book in my opinion perhaps only let down by the lack of any real antagonist or sense of urgency and danger. I thought the ending was wrapped up a little too "And they lived happily ever after" for my tastes but it sure was a hell of a ride.

... all that bullshit about Caine doing it for love. Give me a fucking a break.
...

here's the thing...

CL takes everything we know about Caine from 1-3, and everything we think we know, and tilts it sideways such that everything he has done since ever traces back not to his shitty childhood of poverty, not to his hero worship of the old Overworld actors, not to earth's viciously heirarchical society, not to anything else but to the fact that his father beat his mother to death in front of him and Caine has spent the rest of his life trying to deal with that and in CL he finally does.

CL opens with the worse case scenario, and then shows us how Caine goes about making sure that doesn't happen. He recruits his enemies, his friends, his family, etc, he resists temptation and he saves the Horse Witch who doesn't even want to be saved, all to ensure that he finally can make a happy ending actually happen.

Some major spoilers here if you haven't read all four books...

Spoiler

HD ended with Caine victorious but crippled.
BoT ended with him rewriting the world and appointing a new God, but his wife is still dead and he's 'trapped' on Overworld.
CBK ended the present plotline with Caine thrown back to Earth and almost destroying the ogrilloi in the past.

....up to CL, he hasn't had a happy ending yet.
And that's partly because of his nature as the Sword... he's a weapon, he hurts, he kills... so his efforts to turn that all around are the point of the story.
Fuck.

Vengeance, on 06 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 05 August 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

I'm not sure what else he could have done here, really, especially seeing what Caine's Law became. Most two-part stories, you could combine into a single edition at a later date. Not so with CBK and CL. They are very much two distinctly-different novels.

Absolutely, having batshit fucking inhaling Caine's Law, CBK makes a great deal of skull fucking more motherfucking sense.

FUCKING Fixed

Counterfuckingfixed.

Vengeance, on 06 August 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I've been wondering something. What is Jonathan Fist a reference to? Originally I thought he referred to "Iron Fist" from the Marvel comics but the name doesn't quite fit. Is it an in universe joke we're not supposed to get?

I thought that it was just the first motherfucking name that he went by when he first went to overworld. Before he was cain. When he was doing monastery training or something.

Yep. Afaik just an alias. He's had a few. If it's an Iron Fist ref, it's never been stated.

[Pig Iron]

Aptorius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I've been wondering something. What is Jonathan Fist a reference to? Originally I thought he referred to "Iron Fist" from the Marvel comics but the name doesn't quite fit. Is it an in universe joke we're not supposed to get?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust

[polishgenius]

It's definitely a reference to something - his dad makes a comment on it in the first dreamworld sequence. A quick google has one person suggesting it's a reference to Faust, which does make sense:

Spoiler

Hari introduces the name by stating that 'deals I make turn out badly'.

Edit: Ninja'd. Pffffffffffffffft.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 06 August 2013 - 06:46 PM

[Pig Iron]

polishgenius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

It's definitely a reference to something - his dad makes a comment on it in the first dreamworld sequence. A quick google has one person it's a reference to Faust, which does make sense:

Spoiler

Hari introduces the name by stating that 'deals I make turn out badly'.

Edit: Ninja'd. Pffffffffffffffft.

Also

http://www.urbandict....php?term=Faust

Some weird ones there, but check out #3:

Meaning "fist" in German, Faust is a description of a person who is unbelievably kickass and the life of the party.

Edit: others are really weird, wanted a plain translation of faust as I thought it meant fist, though 3 was fun.

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 06 August 2013 - 06:50 PM

[polishgenius]

That's a very strange use of the word...


But anyways,

Spoiler

a quick read on of the chapter in question has Duncan referring to Mephistopheles a few lines later, pretty much confirming that it's a Faust reference.
I didn't catch it at the time coz I'm not that familiar with the Faust story to get the name off-hand, but eh...

[Baco Xtath]

Aptorius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I've been wondering something. What is Jonathan Fist a reference to? Originally I thought he referred to "Iron Fist" from the Marvel comics but the name doesn't quite fit. Is it an in universe joke we're not supposed to get?

Something to do with To Kill A Mockingbird is what I took away from it.

[amphibian]

Baco Xtath, on 07 August 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Aptorius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I've been wondering something. What is Jonathan Fist a reference to? Originally I thought he referred to "Iron Fist" from the Marvel comics but the name doesn't quite fit. Is it an in universe joke we're not supposed to get?

Something to do with To Kill A Mockingbird is what I took away from it.

Would you care to explain that one? There is no "Jonathan" or "Fist" character within To Kill a Mockingbird, the book by Harper Lee.

[Baco Xtath]

amphibian, on 07 August 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Baco Xtath, on 07 August 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Aptorius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I've been wondering something. What is Jonathan Fist a reference to? Originally I thought he referred to "Iron Fist" from the Marvel comics but the name doesn't quite fit. Is it an in universe joke we're not supposed to get?

Something to do with To Kill A Mockingbird is what I took away from it.

Would you care to explain that one? There is no "Jonathan" or "Fist" character within To Kill a Mockingbird, the book by Harper Lee.

In a little known sequel to Mockingbird, Atticus Finch's son Scout becomes a disciple of Boo Radley, mastering the arts of crazy and chaos, becoming an assassin/ninja and seeking revenge on all of Maycomb. He takes the name Jonathan Fist, because he likes the name Jonathan and because he uses his fist a lot, and becomes an instrument of chaos...........This is a case of being completely wrong. Never actually read Mockingbird and the name Jonathan Fist seemed to follow the whole "which character are you" spiel so I assumed they were connected. They are not and I am wrong.

This post has been edited by Baco Xtath: 07 August 2013 - 12:20 PM

[Tapper]

Baco Xtath, on 07 August 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

amphibian, on 07 August 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Baco Xtath, on 07 August 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Aptorius, on 06 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

I've been wondering something. What is Jonathan Fist a reference to? Originally I thought he referred to "Iron Fist" from the Marvel comics but the name doesn't quite fit. Is it an in universe joke we're not supposed to get?

Something to do with To Kill A Mockingbird is what I took away from it.

Would you care to explain that one? There is no "Jonathan" or "Fist" character within To Kill a Mockingbird, the book by Harper Lee.

In a little known sequel to Mockingbird, Atticus Finch's son Scout becomes a disciple of Boo Radley, mastering the arts of crazy and chaos, becoming an assassin/ninja and seeking revenge on all of Maycomb. He takes the name Jonathan Fist, because he likes the name Jonathan and because he uses his fist a lot, and becomes an instrument of chaos...........This is a case of being completely wrong. Never actually read Mockingbird and the name Jonathan Fist seemed to follow the whole "which character are you" spiel so I assumed they were connected. They are not and I am wrong.

Isn't Fist a reference to Goethe's Johann Faust. When asked about it, Caine even comments he made a bad deal once - Faust of course sold his soul to the devil.
EDIT: see above - both Pig Iron and Polishgenius commented on it.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 07 August 2013 - 01:26 PM

[Abyss]

i likie the Faust connection theory and it certainly makes sense in the context of the story and Caine.

[Aptorian]

I like the Faust theory. How ever, didn't Cain mentioned it was one of his original aliases? Which would be before he began making deals with deities. Of course, the other meaning could be that he sold his soul for fame but I don't think young Cain was that romantic.

[Abyss]

Aptorius, on 07 August 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

...the other meaning could be that he sold his soul for fame but I don't think young Cain was that romantic.

Actually, given his father's academic background, that's entirely plausible. Hari was always more than a killer, he just tried to portray himself that way because that's what the Studios wanted.

[Aptorian]

Abyss, on 07 August 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 07 August 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

...the other meaning could be that he sold his soul for fame but I don't think young Cain was that romantic.

Actually, given his father's academic background, that's entirely plausible. Hari was always more than a killer, he just tried to portray himself that way because that's what the Studios wanted.

True. I saw Hari as being less... deep back then. Very clever yes but also a person hiding in his own mental image of a thug but I could see him thinking up such a name. Although the meaning might have been slightly less self-deprecating back then.