[Aptorian]

Not going to read anything in this thread, yet, for fear of spoilers, but I just finished Heroes Die last night. I don't know why I kept postponing reading this series.

I'd give Heroes Die 5/5 broken legs.

I have to say though, there's not nearly as much profanity in this series as Abyss many jokes had lead me to believe. By that I mean, from the jokes around here I was expecting the dialogue in the book to be something approaching the comical in its use of profanity. Instead I found it just right. Profanity used in the right context can be a very effective tool and in the case of Hari Michaelson it fits that man like a blood soaked glove.

I have just begun Blade of Tyshalle and the flash back to Hari's first years really helps put Cains career into perspective. As the administrator says, and I am paraphrasing: "A shattered leg, a ruined eye, a student brain damaged and nearly dead. Just to get a transfer? Was it too much to just ask?". It kind of sums up Cain perfectly. He's a really destructive force of nature. It doesn't even occur to the man to try a diplomatic approach.

I like Cain but I am also thoroughly appalled by him. Which I think is exactly what Matthew Stover was shooting for. Much like Eriksons writing I have a feeling that Stovers narrative is as much finger pointed at our own insatiable hunger for violent entertainment and destructive tendencies as it is an attempt at telling a more personal and dark fantasy story.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 05 May 2013 - 06:50 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Yeah, the profanity jokes are mostly based around CBK, the third book. You know how the first two books like to jump between different POVs a lot, and Hari/Caine's just one of them? Well, the next two books are almost exclusively told in first person Caine-O-Vision (and half of CBK features pre-superstardom Caine) so the language adjusts accordingly.

Read on, brother!

[Abyss]

Salt-Man Z, on 05 May 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Yeah, the profanity jokes are mostly based around CBK, the third book. You know how the first two books like to jump between different POVs a lot, and Hari/Caine's just one of them? Well, the next two books are almost exclusively told in first person Caine-O-Vision (and half of CBK features pre-superstardom Caine) so the language adjusts accordingly.

Read on, brother!

What Z said.

Only with more fucking profanity.

[Serenity]

I pre-ordered Heroes Die on Kindle for £2.99. This, because I handily gave my paperback copy to charity last year having given up on it (don't hate me . . . ). I just couldn't get into it at the time whilst thinking it was going to be difficult to get hold of BoT. Now that's changed I'm feeling more enthusiastic about it.

[Abyss]

Serenity, on 08 May 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

...Heroes Die ...I handily gave my paperback copy to charity last year having given up on it ...

Out of the thread.
Right the fuck now.



Don't come back until you've read the book.

[End of Disc One]

Random thought, but Stover has said he will write more Caine books if he could get a publisher to pay him. Why doesn't he just go the Kickstarter route like Michael Sullivan?

[Serenity]

Abyss, on 09 May 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Serenity, on 08 May 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

...Heroes Die ...I handily gave my paperback copy to charity last year having given up on it ...

Out of the thread.
Right the fuck now.



Don't come back until you've read the book.

Sir, Yessir!

[Salt-Man Z]

End of Disc One, on 10 May 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Random thought, but Stover has said he will write more Caine books if he could get a publisher to pay him. Why doesn't he just go the Kickstarter route like Michael Sullivan?

Unfortunately, seeing how the comic book KS went down, I don't know if he'd be able to raise enough money to make it worth his time.

Then again, the costs of producing a book vs a comic are completely different, and goodness knows I'd pay more to back a book than I did the comic.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 10 May 2013 - 03:09 PM

[Aptorian]

Finished Blade of Tyshalle last night. As pleasently surprised as I was by Heroes die my reaction to Blade of Tyshalle is almost the complete opposite. I was thoroughly disappointed by the approach he took to this book. The only thing that saves it is the last third of the book which turns back into what I want from a "CAIN" story.

I'd give Blade of Tyshalle 3/5 bitten off nipples.

Spoiler

Heroes Die was a tour de force of a literary action movie featuring a homicidal anti-hero. A mix of Star Trek, Hunger games and the Running Man. It was tight, focused, the characters were larger than life and the story well paced.

Blade of Tyshalle is the hangover after the party of the decade. Which makes sense, of course given the realities that face the people after the ending of Heroes Die, but it wasn't what I wanted to read about. I didn't want a book that is 2/3rd's people wallowing in their own misery and trying to hurt other people for selfish reasons.

I don't buy that Hari wasn't just transported to Overworld and had his spine regrown by Pallas Ril 7 years earlier. I don't buy that the overworld company didn't try to abuse Palas Rils powers for the sake of Earth. I don't buy that the Changeling prince was so easily accepted in Primal culture. I don't buy that a supernaturally intelligent megalomaniac like Tan'elkoth just languished in captivity on Earth and was so easily dominated by the BOG.

And I really didn't like the Blind God. Oh, don't get me wrong, the possessed monster that was Kollberg was a thoroughly impressive and intimidating presence, the likes of which I don't think I have seen since Agent Smith in the Matrix movies. But how is the Blind God even able to function on Earth? And why hasn't it made its move earlier? I think the explanation is probably in one of those end of chapter narratives but I didn't understand half of those metaphoric premonitions anyway.

On the other hand, much like Eriksons philosophising in the MBOTF I am fully in tune with Stovers observations about human nature and the world we live in. And I really liked the way he wrapped up the book. It's funny, I often read books, enjoy them thoroughly and then find myself led down by the ending. This time it was the complete opposite.

I have a question to ask. Does the third book return to the swashbuckling destruction derby that Heroes Die was or does it continue the navel-gazing trend of b-list POVs?

EDIT: Never Mind I see Salt Man mentions that the next book is focused on Hari's POV which is really all I want. Still, I am going to give this series a little break.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 12 May 2013 - 09:12 AM

[Tapper]

amphibian, on 05 February 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Yes, SMZ, I am one of those you sent a BoT to. I think there was at least one other on this forum. The cover art really rocks. The Heroes Die version I have is the white one above and it looks really cheesy - despite being a decently accurate depiction of Caine.

Me - and with huge thanks still

[amphibian]

Once again, Aptorius misses the forest for the trees.

The BoG won't let Hari go to Overworld. Yes, he got caste promoted and some money, but it's a gilt cage.

As for why the Changeling prince was so easily accepted, you missed the importance of the Rroni thing. Don't worry, it'll pop up again.

[Aptorian]

amphibian, on 12 May 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Once again, Aptorius misses the forest for the trees.

The BoG won't let Hari go to Overworld. Yes, he got caste promoted and some money, but it's a gilt cage.

As for why the Changeling prince was so easily accepted, you missed the importance of the Rroni thing. Don't worry, it'll pop up again.

Spoiler

I am pretty sure that it is mentioned at one point that Hari went to Overworld as acting director in connection with some Overworld company business. Furthermore, it's fucking Cain. If he knew that a new pair of legs were waiting for him if he could just jump in to a bath tub on Overworld he would have found a way to get there, fuck the BOG and anyone else standing in his way.

I am sure there was stuff about how Deliann became Prince that we did not learn about but it still seems far fetched to me that these Alien high borns just accepted him. I know that despite their appearance and nature all these Folk are actually more human than you'd expect but I still find it hard to swallow that he could masquarade as a Primal not unless he had some kind of natural glamour about him that even a thousand year old super mage couldn't pierce.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 12 May 2013 - 05:26 PM

[amphibian]

I can't really say much about the Hari situation other than what follows in the spoiler zone.

Spoiler

The mundane world did provide a spine regeneration therapy that mostly failed. The specific quote says 90% chance of working and he was part of the 10%. Furthermore, Hari's status as an Administrator was kept in check by the lawsuit Faith's grandmother (through the father's side) had against him for murdering Faith's father. If Hari ever did anything out of line, the Studio would drop its legal defenses and Hari would lose his father, lose his caste/status/pay/access and go to jail forever. Anyways, as a result of all of this, Hari was sort of trapped in the mundane world either through his circumstances or plot, if you see it as such. Overworld was denied to him.

As for the primal stuff, you forgot this:

Spoiler

I have no secrets from my brother. Rroni knew the truth twenty-five years ago, even before my Adoption. These things could not be spoken of, in front of our companions; my true heritage remains a closely guarded secret of House Mithondionne. Everybody—nearly everybody, at least, our companions included—knows I have a secret, but they have never suspected the truth. Everyone thinks I’m a Mule, one of those rare and pitiful creatures born from a human rape of a primal female. It is generally supposed that Changeling is a polite euphemism.

[Abyss]

Salt-Man Z, on 10 May 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

End of Disc One, on 10 May 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Random thought, but Stover has said he will write more Caine books if he could get a publisher to pay him. Why doesn't he just go the Kickstarter route like Michael Sullivan?

Unfortunately, seeing how the comic book KS went down, I don't know if he'd be able to raise enough money to make it worth his time.

Then again, the costs of producing a book vs a comic are completely different, and goodness knows I'd pay more to back a book than I did the comic.

There were legal issues related to use of the characters in a comic. I suspect the same issues would arise for any non-publisher produced book. fuck.

Aptorius, on 12 May 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

Finished Blade of Tyshalle last night. As pleasently surprised as I was by Heroes die my reaction to Blade of Tyshalle is almost the complete opposite. I was thoroughly disappointed by the approach he took to this book. The only thing that saves it is the last third of the book which turns back into what I want from a "CAIN" story.
...

You're far from alone in that. BoT is a dark dark DARK book and jarring as fuck compared to how the characters are in HD.

But that's the problem and the sheer fucking glory of this book because when Caine drags himself back from where he ends up, what follows is sheer fucking brilliant and, imnsho, makes the first 2/3rds all worthwhile.

Quote

I have a question to ask. Does the third book return to the swashbuckling destruction derby that Heroes Die was or does it continue the navel-gazing trend of b-list POVs?

EDIT: Never Mind I see Salt Man mentions that the next book is focused on Hari's POV which is really all I want. Still, I am going to give this series a little break.

Don't break too long because there's a lot from HD and BoT you may want in mind going into CBK and CL.

[Aptorian]

Yeah. I said I would give it a break. Then I picked up the third book an hour later

[Abyss]

Aptorius, on 13 May 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Yeah. I said I would give it a break. Then I picked up the third book an hour later

BWAAAHAHAHAAAAAFUCKINGHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

CBK is epiCaine. You won't regret it.

[Pig Iron]

Well fuck me like a goat if BoT isn't one of the best fantasy novels I've read. It's fucking bugnuts crazy, but that's a positive. If you want more vicarious bad-assery (like one of Caine's first-handers) CBK will give you more than you can handle ("Retreat from Boedecken", fuck). Then CL will probably mess you up.

[Abyss]

Pig Iron, on 13 May 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Well fuck me like a goat if BoT isn't one of the best fantasy novels I've read. It's fucking bugnuts crazy, but that's a positive. If you want more vicarious bad-assery (like one of Caine's first-handers) CBK will give you more than you can handle ("Retreat from Boedecken", fuck). Then CL will probably mess you up.

Agreed on all points.

EFUCKINGSPECIALLY "("Retreat from Boedecken", fuck)" .

[Vengeance]

"Fuck my ass like a chicken pot pie..."

OhmyfuckinggodsthatisjustaphanominalrideimeanfuckingWOWholyfuckingshitiwanttolickthatshitlikeamotherfuckinglollypop.


Justawesomefuckingawesome.


So yeah I finished the final fucking book.

[Morgoth]

Reading this thread makes me wish I could read the books for the first time again.