[Terez]

I'm not trying to say that the ages of the earth and universe are set in stone and won't ever change. I'm just refuting the idea that the ages of the earth and universe are debated among experts in the way that doxa suggests.

[frookenhauer]

In terms of the Gita, I was recently told that there are two books, but my Hindu friend is about as religious as me, so don't quote me on that...Nothing good is ever easy Tehol

Hey Sirius! Even if God didn't actually say that "You cannot loan out your wife as a sex slave to save your skin" A man who God actually walks with should hardly be surprised when god shows his anger, but the direction of the anger should have been directed at Abram for being such a fool, rather than sending plagues to a country (which, like all plagues may just have claimed quite a few lives), The pharoah just wanted to get jiggy with a hot babe, who wouldn't? In Gods position, I'd have bitch slapped Abram and told him to trust in the lord. Also, if god was sending plagues to Egypt to punish the pharoah for being a goat, he seemed pretty lenient about the whole enslaving the Jewish nation thingy for far too long, but we'll get to that later I'm sure

Quote

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. {P}

Wriggle all you want Doxa, Genesis clearly states that there was an evening and a morning, one day. Look, at some point in your life you might have to come to admit that the model for creation that the bible puts forward might just conceivably be a fabrication. But if you need to stretch an evening and a morning, one day i.e. 12 hours of day and night, if I may be so bold as to paraphrase, into millions of years...Also he called the light day and the darkness night, so day and night. Its not looking good for your argument, but if that's what you need to believe, by all means do so, but remember that the vessel that you grasp holds no water Also the lineage actually points to 6000 years from the present day again there is a general consensus among your creationist brethren and also wiki.

In terms of the age of the Earth, I'll happily settle for 4.6 billion. It is the general consensus and there is enough science and logic and plenty data behind it for it to be mostly accurate. Go science!

Hey Apt Science is only a religion for those who believe it is correct without knowing how it works, but for actual practitioners, i.e. scientists, it is solid, dependable and correct, because they can prove its veracity. For the rest of us, we do not need to rely on millenia old books which tell stories of how awesome god is and how much awesome stuff he did back in the awesome days when he was chilling out with his awesome homies and keeping it real in the awesome ghettos of the ancient world (even though he is no longer doing cool stuff with his homies right now), we got cars, tv, the internet...Our 'religion' produces results and Harry Dresdens soundbite is only correct to a certain degree.

[anakronisM]

frookenhauer, on Nov 21 2008, 02:04 AM, said:

Wriggle all you want Doxa, Genesis clearly states that there was an evening and a morning, one day. Look, at some point in your life you might have to come to admit that the model for creation that the bible puts forward might just conceivably be a fabrication. But if you need to stretch an evening and a morning, one day i.e. 12 hours of day and night, if I may be so bold as to paraphrase, into millions of years...Also he called the light day and the darkness night, so day and night. Its not looking good for your argument, but if that's what you need to believe, by all means do so, but remember that the vessel that you grasp holds no water Also the lineage actually points to 6000 years from the present day again there is a general consensus among your creationist brethren and also wiki.

In terms of the age of the Earth, I'll happily settle for 4.6 billion. It is the general consensus and there is enough science and logic and plenty data behind it for it to be mostly accurate. Go science!

Maybe it is an unnecessary compromise to attempt to merge the bible with those thoughts. Still literal 24-hour days interpretations could have a problem without the sun, sure we have a evening and a night there but it doesn't necessarily mean 24-hours. Can you try to understand this point? The whole idea of our perception in a 24-hour day must involve the sun. Call it wiggle room if that makes you comfortable in calling off the bible as a fiction. I won't talk about the 5 billion year wiggle room for "magical" evolution.

[Terez]

doxa, on Nov 21 2008, 07:54 AM, said:

I won't talk about the 5 billion year wiggle room for "magical" evolution.

You just did. What's magical about it?

[anakronisM]

Terez, on Nov 22 2008, 08:35 PM, said:

You just did. What's magical about it?

Pardon my ranting, 20 billion year of universe are sometimes used as an argument to "believe" that things with extreme little chance of happening would happen just by themselves. But that's for an another discussion obviously.

This post has been edited by doxa: 22 November 2008 - 10:47 PM

[frookenhauer]

doxa, on Nov 21 2008, 01:54 PM, said:

Maybe it is an unnecessary compromise to attempt to merge the bible with those thoughts. Still literal 24-hour days interpretations could have a problem without the sun, sure we have a evening and a night there but it doesn't necessarily mean 24-hours. Can you try to understand this point? The whole idea of our perception in a 24-hour day must involve the sun. Call it wiggle room if that makes you comfortable in calling off the bible as a fiction. I won't talk about the 5 billion year wiggle room for "magical" evolution.

I'm calling the model for creation a fiction. I'm saying that it is not How the Earth is formed. The whole creation idea promotes the idea that the earth is the center of the universe and that it was created first. We KNOW this to be false, because the solar system is in one of the arms of the spiral galaxy which we have cutely named the milky way . Also the model of our solar system requires that the sun must have formed first with the planets forming afterwards, yet the bible clearly states that the sun and moon were created in the fourth day. Also the bible clearly shows that morning and night exist, but the Earth is part of a system and the system clearly requires that the sun provides the light and night only happens on the part of the earth that is faced away form the source of light the sun. The whole idea that those days could have been really really long, just so that the story in the bible can fit in with the big bang theory just seems a little desperate. And its immaterial really, because its the model itself which is wrong.

If the bible had said that the sun provides the light and heat to the Earth and that the earth was in orbit around the sun and that the moon orbited the Earth, then your bible would have been correct and you would have had one more believer (Me ). Unfortunately the authors just did not know how it all works and needed to create something to keep the masses quiet. It's one of the burning questions and I can picture the scene:

Priest: God is the creator of the world and you must pray to him and make sacrifice.

People. Wow! how did he do that?

Priest. He did it like this: "Incorrect gibberish"

People. Wow! So how did he create the world?

Priest. He did it like this: "More incorrect gibberish"

People. Wow!....

Priest. *whew*

Everything about the creation model is incorrect and is guaranteed to have been made up. Turn days into millions of years if you want, but its hardly relevant when its the model itself that can't pass muster.

As for evolution, I am not wholly sure whether it is the exact answer, but there is plenty of evidence that shows the various stages that have led to Homo Sapiens from those chimp like creatures that wandered around some 5 million years ago. While its hardly conclusive those those Homo Erectus skulls are kind of hard to argue against.

[frookenhauer]

And now its time for chapter 13, which is unlucky for some...

Quote

1 And Abram went up out of Egypt, he, and his wife, and all that he had, and Lot with him, into the South. 2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold. 3 And he went on his journeys from the South even to Beth-el, unto the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Beth-el and Ai; 4 unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first; and Abram called there on the name of the LORD. 5 And Lot also, who went with Abram, had flocks, and herds, and tents. 6 And the land was not able to bear them, that they might dwell together; for their substance was great, so that they could not dwell together. 7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram's cattle and the herdmen of Lot's cattle. And the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelt then in the land. 8 And Abram said unto Lot: 'Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we are brethren. 9 Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me; if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou take the right hand, then I will go to the left.' 10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of the Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou goest unto Zoar. 11 So Lot chose him all the plain of the Jordan; and Lot journeyed east; and they separated themselves the one from the other. 12 Abram dwelt in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelt in the cities of the Plain, and moved his tent as far as Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners against the LORD exceedingly. 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him: 'Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art, northward and southward and eastward and westward; 15 for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth; so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for unto thee will I give it.' 18 And Abram moved his tent, and came and dwelt by the terebinths of Mamre, which are in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD. {P}

After screwing the Pharoah out of loads of cattle and silver and gold, paid for by contracting out his wife. Awesome geeza! Anyway there is too much cattle and the land cannot sustain the herds, so Lot chooses Jordan and lives among the sinners of Sodom where I'm sure he is partying hearty, or not. Abraham or Abram gets another visitation by god, who drops by for a chat and lets pimp daddy Abram know that he now gives this land to Abram and that All that he sees N.S.E.W. is now his and moves to Terebinths of Mamre which is a Canaanite shrine to the supreme sky god...For a time when The one true god is walking the Earth and making pacts with his homies and sending plagues to Pharoas that there seem to be far too many people who seem to foolishly want to believe in made up gods and build shrines. Anyway god promises that his descendants will be as many as the dust in the earth, which is surprising as there aren't that may Jewish people around, and they do not really make much of a dent in the overall population of humanity...

Also we are invited to make no mistake about the fact that God intends to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah...To be continued

[teholbeddict]

I'm getting slightly irritated by God turning the blind eye here! What is going on?! The man sold his wife and tricked the pharaoh and screwed him out of all the beasts and whatever. You would think he should be punished! But noooo now he's getting land as far as the eye can see! Plus he's going to be procreating like crazy! Well who is supposed to pop all of these sons (b/c we know they never talk about the daughters!) out for him? That's right, it's the wife he sold!!!! If I were her I would kick his ass to the curb! Sorry about the rant here I just hate the double standard

[Terez]

doxa, on Nov 22 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

Terez, on Nov 22 2008, 08:35 PM, said:

You just did. What's magical about it?

Pardon my ranting, 20 billion year of universe are sometimes used as an argument to "believe" that things with extreme little chance of happening would happen just by themselves. But that's for an another discussion obviously.

Is it? You brought it up, and it's related. Now, we have evidence for the age of the earth, and also for the way in which species came about. They happen to logically fit together (as in, it took millions of years for species to evolve from simple organisms to the current varied forms), because that is how things that actually happened work (unlike the book that Frookie is dissecting here). So what basis do you have for suggesting that the evidence is fabricated for mere convenience's sake?

[anakronisM]

@frookenhauer , @terez

The bible states that the earth was created first and the first heaven was created(air,atmosphere), then the order was set on the fourth day with the sun governing the day with the second heaven, or the heaven of heavens(space) created. Where does it refute the fact that the planets orbit around the sun? On the contrary it states that the order is set as we see it now on the fourth day.

So basically you think the idea of the universe being created is wrong so the rest of it is wrong.

Consider this:
1.The fact that the universe isn't infinite cuz of the big bang theory creates major problems.
Everything coming into existence has a cause, "from nothing comes nothing".
The universe has a starting point.

2.The Order of the earth in the position towards the solarsystem and the universe are so perfected and fine-tuned that chances for a:
-Life-allowing universe are extremely small.
-Life-forbidding universe are extremely big.
This points to a creator or designer if you will.

If you feel like life would exist under other circumstances then why haven't we seen life on mars that is the closest life-allowing planet we know of?

@terez
That you fail to see your own naivety by declaring some sort of secure evidence how all happened stunnes me. It isn't proven in the way you feel, it is a belief aswell as the bible record is a belief. I have an excuse cuz i know i don't have all the answers, but you feel you have it all proven? Come to insight my friend, your beliefs must come into the picture or it can't make sense.

The convenience you get is that you won't deal with a Creator. Or what that would do to your situation.

[caladanbrood]

doxa, on Nov 23 2008, 07:09 PM, said:

2.The Order of the earth in the position towards the solarsystem and the universe are so perfected and fine-tuned that chances for a:
-Life-allowing universe are extremely small.
-Life-forbidding universe are extremely big.
This points to a creator or designer if you will.

If you feel like life would exist under other circumstances then why haven't we seen life on mars that is the closest life-allowing planet we know of?

Ah, now, statistically speaking, the odds of there being a planet somewhere in the universe with the correct correlations to allow life to evolve and flourish are extremely good. Purely because of the vast number of solar systems, and planets therein And of course, our exploration of Mars has hardly begun, and many signs point to there being some level of life there, we just have to be lucky enough to stumble upon it

So I'm afraid, you can't really use that to back up your argument.

[anakronisM]

caladanbrood, on Nov 23 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

Ah, now, statistically speaking, the odds of there being a planet somewhere in the universe with the correct correlations to allow life to evolve and flourish are extremely good. Purely because of the vast number of solar systems, and planets therein And of course, our exploration of Mars has hardly begun, and many signs point to there being some level of life there, we just have to be lucky enough to stumble upon it

So I'm afraid, you can't really use that to back up your argument.

Yet recent findings by the phoenix lander on mars of large quantities of water ice and soil that can grow terrestrial vegetables, indicate conditions on Mars are probably much closer to those of Earth than astronomers previously supposed. Makes me wonder why we can't see bigger traces of life.

Sure you can believe for things to show in the future, but that has to be proven. These hopes are for some persons already facts, but they can't be facts until they are proven. Otherwise we put our hope into a similar belief as the religious ones.

[Terez]

doxa, on Nov 23 2008, 01:09 PM, said:

That you fail to see your own naivety by declaring some sort of secure evidence how all happened stunnes me.

That you fail to see how you just twisted my words to mean what you wanted them to...well, I can't say I'm stunned, cause I've read enough of your posts.

doxa said:

It isn't proven in the way you feel, it is a belief aswell as the bible record is a belief.

Nope, there's a huge difference. My belief has evidence to support it (I never said it was proven). Yours has none.

[frookenhauer]

Hey Doxa! It is the sheer illogicality of creating the Earth in a vacuum that makes me know that the model for creation is a fabrication. Think of it this way, the sun is the center of our solar system and provides energy and the gravity to keep the system in place. When one builds a house they do not build the roof first, foundations are laid and you can think of the sun as the foundation for the solar system. Once the foundation is laid you can build the rest on top of it. Do you see what I mean? There needs to be an order to things or they tend to fall apart. I'm certain God made sure that there was an atmosphere on Earth before he created the animals and sea monsters, to do otherwise would have been fatal.

Another example would be that we can see solar systems forming in the Orion Nebula. And funnily enough the first item on the agenda seems to be the star. God set up the universe and made the whole construct obey certain laws, why is it so difficult to believe that God did not use the very rules he set up for the universe and applied them to create the solar system? I hope you noticed my inclusion of God here, I do not discount the possibility of God, I'm just certain that the biblical version of events regarding creation are a complete fabrication.

Oh and Doxa...We have moved rapidly on and are practically at chapter 14 and I would love to hear your views on how Abraham lied about his relationship to Sarai which lead to the Pharoah shacking up with her, Abraham is recompensed with plenty herds and stuff...and God intervening with plagues when he hears of it, there's something so...poignant about the whole affair.

[Aleksandrov]

May I intrude into this debate?

Quote

The bible states that the earth was created first and the first heaven was created (air,atmosphere), then the order was set on the fourth day with the sun governing the day with the second heaven, or the heaven of heavens (space) created. Where does it refute the fact that the planets orbit around the sun? On the contrary it states that the order is set as we see it now on the fourth day.

This is pure revisionist material. For the last one thousand and five hundred years up til 1600s, the Christian Church has prosecuted those who said the Earth span around the Sun. Galileo, Copernicus? Were their names irrelevant? Granted, nowadays people are more "liberal" in their context of such a contradiction in the bible, but we are not here to discuss this. So the Bible says the Sun does not spin around the Earth? Nay:
Let us examine thus:
Psalm 93 states that: "the world is firmly established; it cannot be moved". The Bible states the Earth cannot move. This phrase was the tool the Inquisition, Calvin and Luther used on Copernicus and the scientists.
Joshua 10:12-13 states that God makes the "Sun stand still" for the night for Jehovah. We now know the night/day cicle has to do with the Earths Orbit, but what is the point of making the Sun stand still for night/day? And the Bible already establishes that the Earth cannot move, as stated in Psalm 93.

Quote

So basically you think the idea of the universe being created is wrong so the rest of it is wrong.

I've read the others' debates on this issue, and I must refute this claim. Others are saying the probability of life being evolved is simply higher than that of creationism; archaeological evidence supports this. Au contraire, it seems to be you that is saying there must be a God/Creationism because Evolution is wrong so the rest of it is wrong.

Quote

1.The fact that the universe isn't infinite cuz of the big bang theory creates major problems.
Everything coming into existence has a cause, "from nothing comes nothing".
The universe has a starting point.

The Big Bang Theory is acknowledged by most of the worlds scientists with their proofs and such. State a few of the "major problems" you have with it. The universe is not infinite but is also infinite. This paradox is explained by that the universe is constantly expanding but is also so vast that it is also infinite in a sense.
This line of thinking also introduces the God Paradox. If what you are saying is that everything has an origin, then how does God factor into this? Where is his/her origin. According to the Bible, the Abrahamic God has no origin. Your argument here makes no sense and serves only to contradict itself.

Quote

2.The Order of the earth in the position towards the solar system and the universe are so perfected and fine-tuned that chances for a:
-Life-allowing universe are extremely small.
-Life-forbidding universe are extremely big.
This points to a creator or designer if you will.

No it doesn't. The perfection and "fine-tuning" of the spin has to do with geo-physical pulls of individual planetary gravitational pulls and it's effects on each other and the Sun. It's not so much as a Creator "perfected" it but rather of mathematical expedience. I will not go into this as much as I like to, this argument has been debunked aeons ago. Wiki some basic gravitational physics laws and it shall prove I am right.
Your point? So if the universe doesn't support all kinds of weird and funky lifeforms that suggests a Creator? That's like saying that car doesn't look like a Toyota so it must be a Ford, even though no evidence supports it.

Quote

If you feel like life would exist under other circumstances then why haven't we seen life on mars that is the closest life-allowing planet we know of?

Mars does not allow life, it is only the "closest life-allowing planet". Evolution (that we currently) know of has it's own requirements and Mars does not support it. It's close but it's not quite there. I don't even know why this argument is even here. It serves no purpose. Current technology cannot let us see far beyond our galaxy where the probability of life existing may be higher. The point is to keep searching, not to shut our minds on the issue say life cannot exist.

EDIT: Grammar.

This post has been edited by Aleksandrov: 24 November 2008 - 05:58 AM

[caladanbrood]

doxa, on Nov 23 2008, 09:53 PM, said:

caladanbrood, on Nov 23 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

Ah, now, statistically speaking, the odds of there being a planet somewhere in the universe with the correct correlations to allow life to evolve and flourish are extremely good. Purely because of the vast number of solar systems, and planets therein And of course, our exploration of Mars has hardly begun, and many signs point to there being some level of life there, we just have to be lucky enough to stumble upon it

So I'm afraid, you can't really use that to back up your argument.

Yet recent findings by the phoenix lander on mars of large quantities of water ice and soil that can grow terrestrial vegetables, indicate conditions on Mars are probably much closer to those of Earth than astronomers previously supposed. Makes me wonder why we can't see bigger traces of life.

Because said life won't spring into existance over seven days, and is most likely at a very early stage if it exists at all, which it may not. Answer my other point?

[anakronisM]

@terez

I see, pardon me for thinking your saying things your not. My point are basically that i refute the idea that religion and science would stand opposed to each other. I understand that you distinguish between your belief and mine, but it is my opinion that science and proven facts can go both ways. I suppose you disagree.

@frookenhauer

I see your point except that the verse: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", the hebrew word for heaven used here are 'Shamayim' - which means "sky" or "air" , "visible heavens". So the air was in place before or at the same time as the earth.
The sun and the planets are set in order, maybe on the fourth day, and i have no problem with that.

There is three kinds of heavens in the bible.
1. The air or sky, named heaven
2. The space and stars, referred to as heaven of heavens in the bible
3. Third heaven, spiritual heaven.

And I am not discarding the possibility of new solar systems and stars to exist, i just won't believe it until its proven. Have in mind i see it from my religious view and i try my best to be as consequent and open-minded as possible.
----
Moving on towards the story about Abraham in Egypt in chapter 12.
First of all Abraham did wrong, God had promised that he would be at Abrahams side and that through him a nation would come (Genesis 12:2-3) "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Abraham should have trusted god, that is what he doesn't do.

Why is he afraid he is gonna die when god has promised him such a great future?
1. There is a famine in the land of Canaan and he travels to Egypt for food, Abraham are tested in a difficult time if he will trust god. His willpower now broken.
2. He fears that his wife, with her beauty would attract the interest of the egyptians. His fears showed to be valid by the reaction of the princes of Egypt, these even commended her to be sent to the Pharaoh for her beauty.

A note, it says that Sarai is taken into Pharaohs house with the intention of having sex with her of course. But does god stop it before happening? Possibly, the point is that God doesn't allow Sarai and the promise about Abrahams seed to be disturbed, cuz Pharaoh doesn't claim Sarai as wife after that he reestablishes Sarai as Abrahams wife. God shows he stands by his promise.
Abraham gets rewarded by Pharaoh not by God, and Abraham gets resources and food somewhat without gods help. But is it gods way? No, and that's what he shows.
Should Abraham get punished? I see this as a touch of Gods grace, every person does wrong (christians aren't more than humans). That god would punish Abraham would show in my perspective a wrong image of his nature, He doesn't always handle things with wrath, i know him mainly by his grace for me even though i'm not perfect.

[SiriusL]

doxa, on Nov 24 2008, 05:24 AM, said:

And I am not discarding the possibility of new solar systems and stars to exist, i just won't believe it until its proven.

And yet you believe that the story of Genesis is correct despite evidence to the contrary? I don't discard the possibility of a god's hand in the creation of the universe, but I know it will never be proven empircally.

Quote

Should Abraham get punished? I see this as a touch of Gods grace, every person does wrong (christians aren't more than humans). That god would punish Abraham would show in my perspective a wrong image of his nature, He doesn't always handle things with wrath, i know him mainly by his grace for me even though i'm not perfect.

I was reading Joshua over the weekend, and I was struck by the absence of any grace from God. Not only does he let Joshua and the Hebrews take over Canaan, he instructs Joshua to commit genocide in several cities--killing every man, woman, and child therein and burning the cities to the ground.

I heard a story of a rabbi who argued strongly that, "God is not good. He's not good. He was just on our side." Reading the Old Testament, I find I have to agree.

[Aleksandrov]

Quote

And I am not discarding the possibility of new solar systems and stars to exist, i just won't believe it until its proven.

Alpha Centauri is a Myth, Alpha Centauri is a Myth, Alpha Centauri is a Myth, Alpha Centauri is a Myth.
They've actually just recently discovered another set of planets orbiting a sun. If something you can actually see with your own eyes is a lie, then I don't know what evidence is. I find your "open-mindness" to believe in a book, rather than believe hard astronomical evidence to be rather closed-minded.

Quote

First of all Abraham did wrong...

Your opinion of God as an omnipotent and omniscient being allows for him/her to know that Abraham would do wrong in the future.

Secondly on the issue of Sarah. This is all Abraham's fault since it was he who started the whole escapade. God is not a factor into it, if you read it as an impartial by-stander. But then again, isn't Abraham a tool of God for him/her to work through? My belief in this issue was for God to show Abraham he needs him/her so he has to worship God or his family will die. God does not love all people, only Christians/Jews and Muslims (if it's the same Abrahamic God we are all lead to believe). The Egyptians had what? Blood rivers, plagues and everyone dies. For what? For something God did himself/herself. This ties in with the Joshua-saga SiriusL described.

Even though the Egyptians are deluded themselves in believing in another set of Deities, nay, God is a jealous God. So the "Almighty" has human traits, with further establishes the fact God was created by man.

This post has been edited by Aleksandrov: 24 November 2008 - 07:19 PM

[frookenhauer]

Wow, things are really moving now...About bloody time, I've been slaving away over a hot bible for almost a month now

Hi Aleksandrov! Welcome to the party and remember this is an open forum so there is no intrusion . I applaud your point with regards to revisionist attitudes, it was something that I have merely touched upon so far and your references are pin point accurate. They broke Galileo, the bastards, he wanted to change the parts of the bible that were incorrect, he loved the Bible and Christianity so much he could not bear the thought of any inaccuracies, but the Holy Roman Church scorched him for it...There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Hey Doxa! Here is some more food for thought with regards to the creation model. If god were to have created the Earth first was it already spinning? To get Earth in motion from standing still, would most likely Tear the place apart. Once the sun is in place we need to get the earth into orbit, which again is most likely to tear things apart again, and so on...There's something extremely inelegant about that way of doing things. Point of FACT: We know how solar systems are formed. We got the mathematics and we are also watching Solar systems form as we speak. There are some in the Orion Belt and also a rather interesting formation being observed by the VLA facility in New Mexico LINK . Its interesting because the bodies orbiting the central mass are rotating in the other direction and may lead to a binary system... /geek mode . The proof is there my friend, its about time you embraced some of it.

And there is one other thing...Early on you were more than willing to entertain the idea of the big bang why not add to that the universe was potentially 20 billion years old and that the earth is 4.6 billion years old. And it would be a good idea, because there is strong Data, and heaps of proofs, and plenty of nodding boffins who have also given us...Cars, TV and the Internet amongst other things...Think about it as a set of scales: On one side you have science and rockets and evolution and stuff. On the other you have the Holy Roman Church (And all its derivations) - which we'll go into a lot later and the bible. If we held them at equilibrium and suddenly let go, the weight of science would catapult the Holy Roman Church into orbit.

In terms of Abraham. You are looking at the Grace of God...of which there is very little in terms of His actions in Genesis, think the flood and you'll see my meaning, and you are ignoring the fact that by pretending to be Sarais brother Abraham must also have had to have given his blessing to the marriage to obtain such wealth...If he had said no, they would merely have kicked him in the teeth and done it anyway...Or are you suggesting these barbarous Egyptians would have just let them go? I'm fairly certain that the Pharoah got jiggy with Sarai...She's hot stuff, and has the added bonus of being barren so there was going to be no chance of any Pharoic progeny out of Abrahams line...I was actually referring to the fact that God had chosen a complete dickhead to be friends with...

Yo Sirius! Joshua sounds pretty intense...Nothing like a good old bit of Genocide to lighten the mood

And Bwoodus, There's no point counting your chickens before the eggs have hatched. I want to believe too, but I think mars might be too close for anything major to surface...