[HoosierDaddy]

Two notes:

1. Fantasy as entertainment.... Erikson would vigorously disagree with you on your classification of him here.
2. Shared worlds are trash? Erikson and Esslemont would vigorously disagree with your classification of them here.

It is tolerable to read characters who are shallow.
It is tolerable to read characters that are modern archetypes.
It is tolerable to read annoying characters.

It is an all-together different thing to do all three at the same time.

[Roland_85]

I wasn't clear enough. When I said "shared worlds" I meant Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Star Wars and the like. the Malazan world is a completely different story. As for what Erikson would think of my classification of him, I say it the way I see it. I respect him a great deal, but he doesn't give me anything besides entertainment. A very complex and engaging one, true, but no more.

As for the rest, I gather you think Tchaikovsky's characters are shallow, modern archetypes and annoying. If so, we'll just have to disagree on that one.

[Salt-Man Z]

HD, I think your two notes are right on, but I think that Roland was intentionally generalizing with his three levels. Most tie-in/shared-world fiction does indeed reside in that lower level, though naturally there are exceptions that try to skirt levels. As for Erikson, Roland's hierarchy would likely (I'm guessing) place him on the veeery high end of the second level; whether or not I agree with that placement, I can accept his reasoning, in the overall context.

[champ]

Roland_85, on 11 August 2010 - 08:30 PM, said:

As for the rest, I gather you think Tchaikovsky's characters are shallow, modern archetypes and annoying. If so, we'll just have to disagree on that one.

I have to say, as characters, i find Thalric and Totho intriguing and maybe Tisamon but the others are just meh! But then again I don't have much love for the series, I have had Salute the Dark half read under my desk for a while now, will finish it though as want to know what happens!

[Roland_85]

Salt-Man Z, on 11 August 2010 - 08:30 PM, said:

HD, I think your two notes are right on, but I think that Roland was intentionally generalizing with his three levels. Most tie-in/shared-world fiction does indeed reside in that lower level, though naturally there are exceptions that try to skirt levels. As for Erikson, Roland's hierarchy would likely (I'm guessing) place him on the veeery high end of the second level; whether or not I agree with that placement, I can accept his reasoning, in the overall context.

Yep, exactly what I meant

[QuickTidal]

Resurrecting this thread a year down the line to state...what I already stated, with a modification or two. On my second try with this book I was enthralled and voraciously reading for the first 200 pages...till the middle...and it slowed way down...again.

Hmm, I'm not nearly as put off as I was the first time, but I definitely wasn't dreaming when I noticed the sluggish midway area the first time. I do want to move forward with it though as I've heard that the later books in the series get really good...but it's tough when this one has such slow bits.

Added weight of THE COLD COMMANDS sitting on my Kindle unread.

[acesn8s]

I felt the same way. Kept checking the page count on my Nook and thinking, I've still got 300 pages left, wtf. I'm in the same boat with book 2. I'm just grinding away at it. My TBR pile is starting to call to me.

[QuickTidal]

Glad I'm not the only one.

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 19 October 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

Books 2 & 3 just came in the mail!

Yep your not the only one. I flew throught the first 100+pgs I guess until Che and Salma are caught as slaves and it has just been a slowass crawl moving foward. Im on pg 288. The overall plot is indeed intriguing as hell but the execution mid book sucks.

Yeah, I think everything that happens in Helleron (Che and Salma getting slaved, Tynisia getting in with skeevy criminals, and even Totho's learning from (the arguably decent character of) Scuto, and Stenwold's absence and then even after he shows up it's not great) slows the pace down to a crawl. Things look up a bit with the Moth-kinden character, but even he second guesses himself too much. Thalric shoving his weight around is interesting enough, but it goes on a bit.

Not to worry BK, I have heard things get better....I just found it hard to push through....

so I started THE COLD COMMANDS instead. I needed me some Morgan goodness.

[Sinisdar Toste]

I've read the first two books of this series now, and they've intrigued me - the kinden and how they've come to be the way they are is baffling. they all share a language? what? giant insects? is this the cretaceous? i'm a sucker for a mystery, and i can tell that i'll be continuing with this series just for that reason. the prologue, with stenwold seeing the wasps take myna was a great intro as well.

that said, there are sections that gave me the blah's. in the first book, there's so much precocious and/or uncertain youth that it gets to be all the same. tynisa was my favourite character though, because of her relationship with tisamon, and thalric a close second. totho started out as a bore, but as the romantic dynamic with him and che played out and was bled out, he became a very interesting viewpoint, and in the second book, totho easily became my favourite main character. i'd been intrigued by his air-battery from the start,

Spoiler

but after tark, and when he's forced to join with dariandrephos (nailed it ) and the wasps, things got very interesting.

salma was always an interesting guy too, and i like him as a guerilla leader. i didn't think stenwold was gonna make it outta book two, but he got a love interest and i guess now he'll have to pass the torch (whether to che or arianna) in a later book. tisamon - gotta love the prideful badass who will swallow his pride for those he loves. the characters from the more obscure kinden are interesting too.

one of my favourite parts of book two was

Spoiler

felise mienn. i knew her name was familiar, and then when it clicked, i was delighted. can't wait to see what happens between her and thalric.

sometimes though, i find tchaikovsky's choice of words a little repetitive, especially in fights. if anyone has any skill at all, they move like 'light and shadow' or vice versa. and certain phrases seem to generalize across kinden and characters that i find myself wondering at. their cultures are so different otherwise, and yet language and vocabulary are almost uniform across the board. but this touches on the mystery of the shared language, so i'm hoping it'll all make sense in the end. i like that he takes on some pretty weighty themes - racism, technology in war, betrayal, revenge and loyalty to an evil institution - but i don't feel them as deeply as i would reading, say, SE. unfair, of course, cuz SE spoils us in that respect, so i'm trying to give AT his fair shake.

on to book #3! (right after my first ever read of dune. so excited!)

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 20 October 2011 - 03:43 AM

[Morgoth]

I notice that a year has gone by and I still haven't gotten through book. umh .. 2? It's still laying in the pile with a bookmark more or less in the middle. I've tried to pick it up. Read a few pages. Put it back down.

And now there's what, 5 more books? There's no way I'm going to torture myself through all of that.

[champ]

Pretty much the same for me, I've been half way through book 4 for ages now and I don't think I will return to the series...

Tchaikovsky has got some good ideas and concepts, just poorly executed! The books seem more of a slog than an enjoyable read...

edit

Hah just noticed my post above, August 11th 2010... not touched the book since!

This post has been edited by champ: 23 October 2011 - 12:06 PM

[Werthead]

Very weird. The first 4 books were fast-paced, enjoyable reads for me. Lighter fare writing-wise, but the ideas and concepts are pretty good. That said, Books 1-2 are notably much more badly-written than Books 3-4. Book 2 has the reputation of being the worst-written in the series (though it has some of the most epic events and battles, which are interesting).

I decided to pause after Book 4 to wait until the second story arc was completed, which it has just been with the publication of Book 7. Will probably recommence the series in a few weeks time.

@ Minhasing Beget: if you look on Tchaikovsky's website, he has some essays and interviews about how the kinden came to be which are quite intriguing. You are correct (IIRC) that the giant insects are a result of a thicker atmosphere than Earth has.

[Mentalist]

Briar King, on 24 October 2011 - 04:13 AM, said:

Just finished Empire. Pretty damn cool stuff. Starting Dragonfly now.

HOw many books is this supposed to be?

I I think 10 or so.
the first Arc lasts 4 books. Book 2 is a drag, because there's a lot of Che chapters.
Book 3 is carried by a brand-new setting. Book 4 is solid.
I've read 5, and it very much felt like a set-up book. it had some cool stuff, sp towards the end, but you're left thinking "where are we going with all of this?"

I've actually recently started 6. Haven't read far past the prologue, due to lack of time. can't say anything definitive about this one yet.

[acesn8s]

Werthead, on 23 October 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

Very weird. The first 4 books were fast-paced, enjoyable reads for me. Lighter fare writing-wise, but the ideas and concepts are pretty good. That said, Books 1-2 are notably much more badly-written than Books 3-4. Book 2 has the reputation of being the worst-written in the series (though it has some of the most epic events and battles, which are interesting).

I decided to pause after Book 4 to wait until the second story arc was completed, which it has just been with the publication of Book 7. Will probably recommence the series in a few weeks time.

@ Minhasing Beget: if you look on Tchaikovsky's website, he has some essays and interviews about how the kinden came to be which are quite intriguing. You are correct (IIRC) that the giant insects are a result of a thicker atmosphere than Earth has.

Book 2 being considered the worst in the series helps. I've beeing stalling out on it. The TBR pile has been calling me. I'm trying to hold off laying it down.

[Sinisdar Toste]

very interesting stuff on that website. 'traitor humanity' is an interesting concept. which is like a lot of AT's concepts. like someone said above though, the execution is not the best. though if book two is considered the worst, then i have some hope for the rest

[acesn8s]

Tothos and Dephos make the middle DragonFly a lot more interesting.
I may take a break once I finish book 2 though.

[Sinisdar Toste]

acesn8s, on 27 October 2011 - 12:03 PM, said:

Tothos and Dephos make the middle DragonFly a lot more interesting.
I may take a break once I finish book 2 though.

best part of the book i think, starting at the siege of tark. and then when che shows up...

[Sinisdar Toste]

well, i've finished blood of the mantis, and have to say it was quite weak in comparison to dragonfly. it was a solid read, some more good fleshing out of the world, interesting new settings and some tense moments, but in all, quite plainly an interlude book, connecting dots from one set of major battles to the next.

in specific,

Spoiler

i liked the exalsee parts, cuz dog-fighting orthopters are awesome, and solarno itself seemed like an intriguing place. jerez and the skater kinden were interesting, as was the introduction to the lake-beatles. i'm really getting into the whole world-wide revolution of the apt storyline, cuz it all seems so wonderfully concurrent with itself that i almost believe there was some kind of trigger that set the whole thing off. not the bloody crossbow, but a person, or some greater force, like an overmind, that caused all these revolts at roughly the same time. it all just seems too convenient otherwise. though i do enjoy how there are so many schemes within schemes going on. i like trying to peel back the layers. what is teornis really after, anyway?

one thing that AT does a lot of is jump POV's. like SE, but also unlike him. SE always lets you know when you've jumped ship on a character with a line break. AT doesn't use them, and you have to use contextual clues to find out whose head you're in. i'm finding that my connections with his characters are less powerful because of this, though i am getting close to a few of them. basically, i'm not as emotionally invested as i might otherwise have been.

for example,

Spoiler

the strongest emotional reaction i had in blood of the mantis, was when sperra was brought in by the ants of sarn after being tortured. a very secondary character, despite being around since book one, but my gut clenched at the thought of them torturing her, because she had nothing to do with the assassination attempt, and was in fact trying to save the queen's life. yet the ants break her joints and cut her to pieces, just to confirm what should have been obvious to anyone who was using their damned eyes. fucking ants rely on mind-talk to much.

so basically i am getting invested with the story, but have yet to be completely blown away, so to speak.

[Mentalist]

Minhasing Bheget, on 03 November 2011 - 04:54 AM, said:

well, i've finished blood of the mantis, and have to say it was quite weak in comparison to dragonfly. it was a solid read, some more good fleshing out of the world, interesting new settings and some tense moments, but in all, quite plainly an interlude book, connecting dots from one set of major battles to the next.

in specific,

Spoiler

i liked the exalsee parts, cuz dog-fighting orthopters are awesome, and solarno itself seemed like an intriguing place. jerez and the skater kinden were interesting, as was the introduction to the lake-beatles. i'm really getting into the whole world-wide revolution of the apt storyline, cuz it all seems so wonderfully concurrent with itself that i almost believe there was some kind of trigger that set the whole thing off. not the bloody crossbow, but a person, or some greater force, like an overmind, that caused all these revolts at roughly the same time. it all just seems too convenient otherwise. though i do enjoy how there are so many schemes within schemes going on. i like trying to peel back the layers. what is teornis really after, anyway?

one thing that AT does a lot of is jump POV's. like SE, but also unlike him. SE always lets you know when you've jumped ship on a character with a line break. AT doesn't use them, and you have to use contextual clues to find out whose head you're in. i'm finding that my connections with his characters are less powerful because of this, though i am getting close to a few of them. basically, i'm not as emotionally invested as i might otherwise have been.

for example,

Spoiler

the strongest emotional reaction i had in blood of the mantis, was when sperra was brought in by the ants of sarn after being tortured. a very secondary character, despite being around since book one, but my gut clenched at the thought of them torturing her, because she had nothing to do with the assassination attempt, and was in fact trying to save the queen's life. yet the ants break her joints and cut her to pieces, just to confirm what should have been obvious to anyone who was using their damned eyes. fucking ants rely on mind-talk to much.

so basically i am getting invested with the story, but have yet to be completely blown away, so to speak.

basically, throughout book 2 and 3, Solarno caries the series (I think it's there in book 2, no? if not, well, then I guess what kept me going was the general world-building. since both Che and Salma were emo-boring in DragonFly. seriously, though, Solarno is amazing, it actually makes Che look not so bad after all that (and somehow, miraculously, AT manages to turn her around, though I guess this is a quasi-spoiler for the rest of the series)) general wordbuilding is great, but AT seriously needs to work on characterization (at that point. It gets better. )
Salute the Dark was a very solid book, and a meaty conclusion to the first arc. compared to Dragonfly and blood (where I had to force myself sometimes), Salute the Dark was a real page-turner.

The Scarab Path and the Sea Watch both try something new, esp Sea Watch. I think they pull it off, though I have a hard time seeing where AT is going with this.
I hope next time I find the bloody time to pay chapters a visit they'll have "Heirs of the Blade" available in mppb. I still find the whole idea of totem insects and everything kinden-related, plus the Apt/inApt dichotomy to be amazing concepts.