[QuickTidal]

Ugh, don't get into it with author's who feel that, for example, Avenger's Loki calling Black Widow by a sexually-infused nasty name is sexist (which of course it is) but that somehow (to said author's mind) therefore Joss Whedon CHOSE to make Loki sexist and that's not right. *foot stomp* And why should Loki call her a name like that?! *double foot stomp*

To which I responded that he's the villain. Making him say sexist stuff is simply another reason to hate him.

To which he kind of took the stance that a villain is "Not allowed to be viciously sexist"...

Sorry, what's that Mr. Author sir? The villain...is allowed to be villainous in all ways...so long as he doesn't make sexist comments because that's too far?

WHAT

THE

FUCK?

some days author's remind me they are ordinary people with silly ideas who make blanket statements that make little sense.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 08 May 2012 - 08:05 PM

[tiam]

The awkward moment when you make a large book forum post and all the feedback and rep you gets from it is about a typo that says 'nads' instead of hands...

sigh...

[Adjutant Stormy~]

20 hours until the most important exam in my life.

Startig to freak out, completely normal.

Still, losing my shit.

[amphibian]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 08 May 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

The awkward moment when you make a large book forum post and all the feedback and rep you gets from it is about a typo that says 'nads' instead of hands...

sigh...

Your post was riddled with typographical errors. Worrywort merely excerpted a mistake you wrote that actually makes a ton of sense, yet is incredibly funny in a dirty sense.

The phrase "power is now in the nads of mortals" somehow expresses perfectly what happens in the Malazan world over the course of the books. On the off chance you do not know what "nads" are, it is often a slang word used for "testicles" or "balls". The boldness of mortals is made out to be a great quality by Erikson throughout the books, so it is simultaneously a goof and perfectly fitting in a lewd way.

I suspect Erikson would approve of that typo, even if the others cause dismay. Do not think Worrywort is being a dick to hurt you. He's after some laughs and usually not directed in a negative way towards anyone.

Also, your book forum post rambles a bit off point. I'll write more in that forum to show what I mean.

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 08 May 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Ugh, don't get into it with author's who feel that, for example, Avenger's Loki calling Black Widow by a sexually-infused nasty name is sexist (which of course it is) but that somehow (to said author's mind) therefore Joss Whedon CHOSE to make Loki sexist and that's not right. *foot stomp* And why should Loki call her a name like that?! *double foot stomp*

To which I responded that he's the villain. Making him say sexist stuff is simply another reason to hate him.

To which he kind of took the stance that a villain is "Not allowed to be viciously sexist"...

Sorry, what's that Mr. Author sir? The villain...is allowed to be villainous in all ways...so long as he doesn't make sexist comments because that's too far?

WHAT

THE

FUCK?

some days author's remind me they are ordinary people with silly ideas who make blanket statements that make little sense.

'Not allowed' is a bit too strong.
But out of character? Most definately.
The fact that Loki the Trickster, who relies on being convincing and is the very best liar in the pantheon, is openly mysogenist is rather unbelievable. The thing about being a convincing liar is that you don't make slips and manage to manipulate your way through stuff - running the chance of estranging one half of the population of earth/asgard et cetera is rather... un-Trickster-like.

Secondly, if a script-writer needs to rely on making the audience hate the villain in order to muster sympathy for the heroes, he's created a cardboard one dimensional adversary. OK, we're talking a Marvel adaptation of mythology (aka, we keep the names of the gods and almost nothing else) which is then condensed to what, 90-120 minutes for a movie. We're not talking Nobel Prize nominee literature... but even so, especially Whedon can do better than having to rely on sexism to make his villain unsympathetic.

And the bigger question is: why does the villain have to be unsympathetic, anyway? In a good story, and as we all know from literature and other movies, some of the very best villains have redeeming qualities.

So yeah, if stuff was said as you said it, it was too strong. But I share part of the sentiment at the very least.

EDIT: messing with my groove and why I got here in the first place:

My washing machine broke down and caused aforementioned leaking by nearly flooding my washing room. It is going to need replacement. And just before I go on holidays... when I need to do serious washing.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 09 May 2012 - 07:09 AM

[QuickTidal]

Nope, i disagree with you Taps. A person can write a villain as sexist as they like. Let's not castrate art shall we for the delicate sensibilities of the few?

"if a script-writer needs to rely on making the audience hate the villain in order to muster sympathy for the heroes"

Errr...what?

Just what?

If you think that was what he was doing, you missed the point entirely.

Seriously, what's next on the chopping block for not allowed or taboo to write about?

What would Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Warren Ellis or Grant Morrison (all brilliant, well-respected authors who don't shy away from ANYTHING) if you relayed the above restrictions on them? I would imagine they'd tell you exactly where to go.

No, this is the case of a C-List writer, opening his yap about something he doesn't fully understand and also harming his own industry of storytelling by saying "sexism" is off limits to certain people. No, fuck that. Nothing is off limits...especially when it comes to a villain.

Sorry for the thread derail. I'm done ranting about this now.

Sorry Taps.

[Gothos]

It remains though that making him sexist is a very, very cheap and unimaginative way of making him more villanous. Let's also make him kick a dog and take candy from a baby!

[Dr Trouble]

Gothos, on 09 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

It remains though that making him sexist is a very, very cheap and unimaginative way of making him more villanous. Let's also make him kick a dog and take candy from a baby!

That would be pretty bad-ass...

[Lucifer's Heaven]

Gothos, on 09 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

It remains though that making him sexist is a very, very cheap and unimaginative way of making him more villanous. Let's also make him kick a dog and take candy from a baby!

It's only unimaginative if's out of character, and it's entirely within his character to be at least a bit sexist. Remember, Asgard culture is still somewhat sexist, and that only even started to get turned around when he was becoming a man. Sif is one of the few women warriors, and one of the ones who leads the way in showing that women can make awesome warriors. She's a childhood friend of Loki and Thor, she wouldn't have been able to make her mark till they were all nearing adulthood.
And that's not just norse mythology, that's a part of the Marvel thing if I recall and IS part of the movie canon (Thor even mentions her as showing them that a woman could make it in his movie).
Also, he's desperate, power hungry and thinks he's better than everyone. He would say anything he could think of to belittle someone (if that's what he wanted to do). Would he use sexist comments? Hell yeah. But he'd use them because they're their to use. He'd use them against men too if that wasn't made irrelevant by him being a man.
I don't see it so much as him being overly sexist, as him thinking everyone is less than him, and will use everything he can to make them feel/seem small/useless.

If it's just a cheap tack on to make them less likeable, than it's a bit shit, but if it fits the character, then it is fine and can be a good reason for actually disliking someone.

PS - I didn't have to rationalise it like this or anything, it's just how it came across to me. I didn't for a second feel like it was out of character or even really notice it as an issue.

[QuickTidal]

Lucifer, on 09 May 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Gothos, on 09 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

It remains though that making him sexist is a very, very cheap and unimaginative way of making him more villanous. Let's also make him kick a dog and take candy from a baby!

It's only unimaginative if's out of character, and it's entirely within his character to be at least a bit sexist. Remember, Asgard culture is still somewhat sexist, and that only even started to get turned around when he was becoming a man. Sif is one of the few women warriors, and one of the ones who leads the way in showing that women can make awesome warriors. She's a childhood friend of Loki and Thor, she wouldn't have been able to make her mark till they were all nearing adulthood.
And that's not just norse mythology, that's a part of the Marvel thing if I recall and IS part of the movie canon (Thor even mentions her as showing them that a woman could make it in his movie).
Also, he's desperate, power hungry and thinks he's better than everyone. He would say anything he could think of to belittle someone (if that's what he wanted to do). Would he use sexist comments? Hell yeah. But he'd use them because they're their to use. He'd use them against men too if that wasn't made irrelevant by him being a man.
I don't see it so much as him being overly sexist, as him thinking everyone is less than him, and will use everything he can to make them feel/seem small/useless.

If it's just a cheap tack on to make them less likeable, than it's a bit shit, but if it fits the character, then it is fine and can be a good reason for actually disliking someone.

PS - I didn't have to rationalise it like this or anything, it's just how it came across to me. I didn't for a second feel like it was out of character or even really notice it as an issue.

Thanks Luci. This is my opinion as well, but you spelled it out better than I could at this early hour.

[QuickTidal]

And let's dig further into my groove messed with ...as people who are adopted have found shit to moan about now...based off a joke in the film...and the post writer at Bleeding Cool puts it into perspective...

http://www.bleedingc...tent=FeedBurner

This kind of delicate sensibility PC bullshit that has begun to invade notions put forth in FICTION...needs to effing stop. It's getting so we will eventually have silent movies where no one says shit and everyone showers each other with flowers.

Gods.

The hell?!

[Mezla PigDog]

QuickTidal, on 09 May 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

And let's dig further into my groove messed with ...as people who are adopted have found shit to moan about now...based off a joke in the film...and the post writer at Bleeding Cool puts it into perspective...

http://www.bleedingc...tent=FeedBurner

This kind of delicate sensibility PC bullshit that has begun to invade notions put forth in FICTION...needs to effing stop. It's getting so we will eventually have silent movies where no one says shit and everyone showers each other with flowers.

Gods.

The hell?!

Don't take it so hard. You need to remember that these people are adopted and are therefore evil.

[QuickTidal]

Mezla PigDog, on 09 May 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Don't take it so hard. You need to remember that these people are adopted and are therefore evil.

LOL, I always forget that part.

It's like when my girlfriend sneezes twice...that's normal...if she sneezes three time she's possessed by a demon and must be exorcised.

[rhulad]

QuickTidal, on 09 May 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Mezla PigDog, on 09 May 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Don't take it so hard. You need to remember that these people are adopted and are therefore evil.

LOL, I always forget that part.

It's like when my girlfriend sneezes twice...that's normal...if she sneezes three time she's possessed by a demon and must be exorcised.

Oh my god, I just sneezed 3 times in a row. WHAT IS HAPPENING TO ME?

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Sore throat, final exam.

[HiddenOne]

PC is a thing of unspeakable evil - in 2 generations we shall either be scorned for our foolishness or praised as the progenitors of the benign blandness that replaces all art, life, entertainment, and personal interaction. There will come a time when it becomes illegal to possess or express an opinion other than accepting & welcoming any thing that arises, without regard for personal beliefs (which will be illegal as well).

So cheerful

[Tiste Simeon]

I was going to write this:

It's messing with my groove that the Samsung Galaxy S3 is coming out/has come out, and I can't have one. Curse you 18 month contract.

Then I realised, holy crap that is so materialistic, and I never thought I was before (honestly if I had a book I was happy...) All of a sudden I must have the latest toy cos it's better than everything else I have?? and so much better than an iPhone, but that isn't the issue right now...

Thus, what is messing with my groove is that I dislike how I feel like I NEED something when it would just be superradawesomecool to have it...

[QuickTidal]

Tiste Simeon, on 09 May 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

I was going to write this:

It's messing with my groove that the Samsung Galaxy S3 is coming out/has come out, and I can't have one. Curse you 18 month contract.

Then I realised, holy crap that is so materialistic, and I never thought I was before (honestly if I had a book I was happy...) All of a sudden I must have the latest toy cos it's better than everything else I have?? and so much better than an iPhone, but that isn't the issue right now...

Thus, what is messing with my groove is that I dislike how I feel like I NEED something when it would just be superradawesomecool to have it...

Meh, it's okay to have dreams and wants. Ain't nothing wrong with that sir.

Desiring things makes life worth living.

I think the following post recently by Amanda Palmer at her blog is relevant for you Tiste:

Quote

i think it’s funny that people are constantly saying “first world problems”…bashfully excusing themselves, as if to dismiss their own emotions as invalid compared to the next person. because of course these problems, the problems stemming from our privileged lives pale in comparison to the problems of real-ass starvation, war, extreme physical suffering.

well, of course. of course. things could always be harder - everything’s relative. and it’s never good to lose perspective. it helps. it does.

and OF COURSE the problems of those in the first world are first world problems. if you’re HAVING them, chances are….that’s where you are.

starving people have starving people problems, dying people have dying people problems, overweight people have overweight people problems, white people have white people problems, black people have black people problems, rich people have rich people problems, gay people have gay people problems, straight people have straight people problems….are we detecting a pattern?

everybody’s got them, period.

you can’t measure human suffering with a yardstick. those who try to do it end up vindictive, even when they’re trying to be helpful.

because the minute you start measuring suffering, you invalidate somebody’s suffering…and that just never works. that’s where the whole shit starts getting ugly.

anyone who says “my pain is bigger than your pain” is speaking from fear.
anyone who says “my feelings are more valid than your feelings” isn’t speaking from empathy.

the song don’t lie: everybody hurts. everybody suffers, everybody feels pain. and everybody feels it for a different reason on a different day in a different way. and it’s all real….there’s no pain that isn’t valid, there’s no pain that isn’t “real” because somebody has it worse off. pain is pain. all you can do is feel it, accept it, move on and know that everybody else on this spinning ball of dirt is in the same boat, and we all need to acknowledge each other’s pain, no matter what the package, and no matter how big or small that package appears.

when we do this, that’s what keeps us compassionate brothers and sisters on earth.

will i occasionally still use the “first world problems” joke the next time i find myself complaining that the coffee in this bistro is over-roasted?

eh, probably.

why?

because it’s a funny fucking joke.

There is a lot of wisdom in that post methinks.

[Illuyankas]

HiddenOne, on 09 May 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

PC is a thing of unspeakable evil - in 2 generations we shall either be scorned for our foolishness or praised as the progenitors of the benign blandness that replaces all art, life, entertainment, and personal interaction. There will come a time when it becomes illegal to possess or express an opinion other than accepting & welcoming any thing that arises, without regard for personal beliefs (which will be illegal as well).

So cheerful

How about focusing on aspects of someone that are purposefully chosen and not involuntarily received at birth, instead of complaining that you can't be racist, sexist or shitty towards disabled people any more?

For example! (and also why I came to this thread)

A dude of Pakistani descent on the BBC news defends a bunch of other Pakistani men drugging and raping English girls of 13 and above being caught and imprisoned by stating that his daughters would be home by 7 regardless and 'it takes two to tango'.

Reasonable, PC opinion: He's a victim blaming chucklefuck with reprehensible opinions

The opinions you're advocating being able to return without censure: He's a Paki faggot who wants his shitty religion controlling ARE COUNTRY


Ignore the bullshit and lies the likes of the Daily Mail spews forth about political correctness gawn mad, and get out of that terrible mindset of 'I don't care if this hurts someone else as long as I find it funny' because it's a childishly selfish way to view the world. Ricky Gervais isn't funny regardless of whether he can call a kid with Downs syndrome a mong or not, no matter how many interviews he does defending his right to be an asshole. Stop getting overly paranoid about a feature of modern life designed to help allow gay people and women and minorities and disabled people and more not have shitty prejudice-filled lives, I mean come the fuck on.

[Mezla PigDog]

HiddenOne, on 09 May 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

PC is a thing of unspeakable evil - in 2 generations we shall either be scorned for our foolishness or praised as the progenitors of the benign blandness that replaces all art, life, entertainment, and personal interaction. There will come a time when it becomes illegal to possess or express an opinion other than accepting & welcoming any thing that arises, without regard for personal beliefs (which will be illegal as well).

So cheerful

I was just so confused by Illy's response. I assumed HiddenOne was referring to the Microsoft kind of PC