[Blend]

Danyah, on Oct 7 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

TtH minor spoiler

Spoiler

The only timeline issue that might rise is: how did Traveller get from Quon to shipwrecking in south genabackis in almost no time? Intervention from ST?

Spoiler

Right after Shadowthrone and Cotillion have their chat with Traveller / Dassem near Morn, they make a comment along the lines of Mael having intervened, and perhaps tried to delay him. I figure that has something to do with how fast he got there.

[beru]

wy does mael suddenly begin to mess with the Malazan part of wu?? eny ideas

its proably draconus that is showing up... the "void" might be KG protal that looks like its on his hip beakuse his possison make it look like he has it on his hip... or mayby its the chain that hold him to the wagon... sothing like that...

[Dancer+]

There need not be any spoilers in this thread. If this was in the TtH forum there would need to be RotCG spoilers but not the other way around.

[Aptorian]

O rly? I would say that while it's not required, it's certainly okay if people want to make considerations.

[Dancer+]

Aptorian, on Jan 5 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

O rly? I would say that while it's not required, it's certainly okay if people want to make considerations.

I obviously agree, I said there didn't "need" to be spoilers. People can put spoilers in if they wish.

[williamjm]

beru, on Jan 5 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

wy does mael suddenly begin to mess with the Malazan part of wu?? eny ideas

I thought Mael was only paying attention to Malazan because his priest Mallick was compelling him to. Once he breaks free of Mallick's influence he doesn't play any further part (other than transporting Mallick's boat away from Unta, which does turn out to be helpful to Mallick so I'm not quite sure why Mael does it).

[amphibian]

beru, on Jan 5 2009, 06:31 AM, said:

wy does mael suddenly begin to mess with the Malazan part of wu?? eny ideas

My theory is that Mael made a deal with Hood to bring back Tehol Beddict's soul - and the deal required Mael to delay or take Dassem when he sailed the seas.

If this is true, then the tripartite deal between Anomander Rake, Shadowthrone and Hood to solve the three problems (including that of timing Dassem's arrival in Darujhistan) looks ridiculously subtle and awesome.

[blackzoid]

Traveller, on Jan 6 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

blackzoid, on Oct 5 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

SPOILERS for TTH







Ok, after doing a re-reread of Return I now think that the central timeline issue between the books , Draconus been relesed from Dragnipur before TtH is not true.
My evidence for:
1: Nait first meets Heuk on the hill when he starts to perform his ritual.
p 595, from Naits point of view
"But it was not a true silence. Something filled it. He strained to listen: the faintest rumbling and rattle of chain? Deep reverberations such as wheels groaning in the dark? "

Nait is hearing the sounds of what is inside Dragnipur! This is (presumably) not what Dragnipur will be like after its destroyed by Brood's hammer. So I think Dragnipur is intact at this moment in time. And Draconus is still inside it.

2:p599
Nait see's who we assume to be Draconus

"He'd never seen a Tiste Andii but had heard them described often enough. This one resembled such: tall, black as night, almond eyes, long straight hair..........And it seemed to Nait that the figure was not entirely there; he could see through it. Something hung at its side. Nait almost looked there but pulled his gaze away in time: a void hung there yammering terror at him. It seemed to suck in the night."

My theory is that this figure is indeed Draconus but he is sending out, a projection of himself from INSIDE Dragnipur. thats why Nait can see through him. The void at his side is a representation of the sword. (Yes I know that this is the same description of the pre-sword Dragnipur void which was also in the Prologue, but you know the theory isn't perfect)
In TtH Gruntle and co were able to get inside Dragnipur through a warren. I'd say that Dragnipur was "leaking" at this point and Draconus was able to get this representation out.

As for Draconus looking different in TtH(not specifically described as Tiste Andii and has a beard), we already had Osserc looking different to how he was in HoC and didn't Envy say before that Anomander disguised himself as a human bodyguard and as a Segulah in two seperate incidents? Perhaps the Tiste Andii shape was also a representation of Draconus as a symbol rather then an accurate description?


Evidence against:
Heuk does say to Possum that the King of Night has returned. I can't explain this, except to hope that Heuk misspoke, hopefully he meant to say that Draconus was just getting ready to return.

Having now re-read TTH, I've been re-reading RCG, and when I reached this point, it really seemed to me that the insubstantial figure that appears, dark hair or not, is a manifestation of Rake after he has moved the gate.

I know there are arguments for it being Draconus, but it seems to be far more like a sort of 'ghost' form of Rake, from the discription, and also from what the others think.

- I don't think Dragnipur ever 'leaks.' Gruntle followed Cartographer/Hood to get in.

- Rake moves the Gate, and is reunited with MD. I think this is the returned 'King of Night' that is
sensed - not Draconus. Rake is MD's son, whatever links Draconus has with KG.
The 'King of Night' title seems like the 'Wind' title given to Osserc - a different name for the same
thing, given by different people.

- The dark hair. Rake has changed, joined with Kurald Galain/MD. The figure is translucent, and
carries the 'ghost' of Dragnipur at his side. It's got to be Rake, hasn't it?!

- All the time Draconus has been in Dragnipur, Rake has been out, growing older and more powerful;
he is far more the true owner/wielder of Dragnipur, even if Drac did forge it - if Rake were to
ascend even further after his reunion with MD, if that were possible, would a physical representation
of him, however ephemeral, not carry the sword?

Just an impression I got from a second read, is all - having read TTH recently, this bit seemed to make more sense, and also hinted to me that Rake is not yet done.... at least in a new form.

Call the figure Draconus if you like, but at the end of TTH, after long imprisonment, Draconus didn't seem to be in a state to go confidently 'projecting' himself onto a distant battlefield, or have any reason to.

However, if Rake is still around - as the new King of Night... if he could, he would surely manifest at an unveiling of KG.

Just a crazy theory maybe - it was the impression I got when I read it though.

(I didn't spoiler this as I was using previous quotes that weren't spoilered - but it might need some!)

Traveller, you are missing something:
Return of the Crimson Guard takes place BEFORE Toll the Hounds.

Dassem has not fought Rake yet when this scene takes place, hence Dragnipur is still intact, the Gate has not moved and Rake is not dead yet. Draconus is still inside Dragnipur. And Dassem is still looking for vengence.



Edit: Hey Traveller, you deleted your post before I could get the boot in.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 08 January 2009 - 10:10 AM

[Traveller]

Oops. I wasn't sure of the timeline there; when I read it, I thought there was a slight overlap - but I'd forgotten Dassem...

EDIT - @Blackzoid - only cos I posted/moved it to a different thread; but hey, it was wrong there too.
S'ok, it's all there in your post anyhoo.


Sigh, my idle speculation needs more work...

This post has been edited by Traveller: 08 January 2009 - 12:54 PM