[High Mage of Mockra]

Sorry if there is already a thread on this but my search function isn't working.

This is for a discussion about the three inter-connected warrens of Thyr, Maenas,Rashan and of course their Elder counterparts. I would like to hear everyone's views on them and the other things that also work the same way as those warrens such as the Hounds, etcetera.

My personal question though, is the relationship between the Hounds of Shadow and Darkness and their allegiances. I do not quite understand that.

[Aptorian]

I can tell you that 8 books in we still don't understand that much either.

Thyr, Meanas and Rashan are like the offspring of the Elder warrens Kurald Liosan/Thyrlan, Kurald Emurhlan and Kurald Galain.

But not quite. Thyr seems to be a warren on to itself but Maenas and Rashan seem to have a closer connection. It's not completely obvious whicvh one Shadowthrone controls. Meanas is refered to as the warren of illusion, not shadow. Yet it is also a warren of shadows.

There seems to be some connection between what K'rull did, creating the houses and channelling the magic through his veins, and dragons. This is not completely understood.

Fina´lly you have ancient gods, some of the Elder Gods, who may in fact be elemental beings like Mother Dark supposedly is.

It's just a whole big pile of confusions.

Nobody quite gets what is up with the hounds. I recommend asking again when you've read Night of Knives, Bonehunters and Toll the Hounds.

[D'rek]

I believe it is spoken of at some point (probably in the ravings at the beginning of chapters) that the three modern warrnes, Thyr, Rashan and Meanas, act as a function as each other. The example is Rashan, darkness, but a darkness that is given its power by being seen in contrast to light (sounds a lot like shadow, eh?). No clue where the specific quote is or whether I could dig it up in the next few days, but in any case, if this poet/writer was right, this could be the difference: Thyr, Rashan and Meanas act off each other, while the Kuralds are simply self-contained expressions.

[Paradoxical Dr??]

D'rek, on Aug 28 2008, 09:24 AM, said:

I believe it is spoken of at some point (probably in the ravings at the beginning of chapters) that the three modern warrnes, Thyr, Rashan and Meanas, act as a function as each other. The example is Rashan, darkness, but a darkness that is given its power by being seen in contrast to light (sounds a lot like shadow, eh?). No clue where the specific quote is or whether I could dig it up in the next few days, but in any case, if this poet/writer was right, this could be the difference: Thyr, Rashan and Meanas act off each other, while the Kuralds are simply self-contained expressions.

I believe the quote you were looking for was at the beginning of Book III of HoC...

The art of Rashan is found in the tension that binds the games of light, yet its aspect is one
of dissipation—the creation of shadow and of dark, although in this case the dark is not
absolute, such as is the aspect of the ancient warren, Kurald Galain. No, this dark is
particular, for it exists, not through an absence of light, but by virtue of being seen.

The Mysteries of Rashan—a madman’s discourse
Untural of Lato Revae

And I just realised that the question was asked in Aug '08. Ah well, I just finished HoC today and loved it. Fantastic series thus far!

[D'rek]

Paradoxical Dr??, on Apr 26 2009, 04:44 AM, said:

D'rek, on Aug 28 2008, 09:24 AM, said:

I believe it is spoken of at some point (probably in the ravings at the beginning of chapters) that the three modern warrnes, Thyr, Rashan and Meanas, act as a function as each other. The example is Rashan, darkness, but a darkness that is given its power by being seen in contrast to light (sounds a lot like shadow, eh?). No clue where the specific quote is or whether I could dig it up in the next few days, but in any case, if this poet/writer was right, this could be the difference: Thyr, Rashan and Meanas act off each other, while the Kuralds are simply self-contained expressions.

I believe the quote you were looking for was at the beginning of Book III of HoC...

The art of Rashan is found in the tension that binds the games of light, yet its aspect is one
of dissipation—the creation of shadow and of dark, although in this case the dark is not
absolute, such as is the aspect of the ancient warren, Kurald Galain. No, this dark is
particular, for it exists, not through an absence of light, but by virtue of being seen.

The Mysteries of Rashan—a madman’s discourse
Untural of Lato Revae

And I just realised that the question was asked in Aug '08. Ah well, I just finished HoC today and loved it. Fantastic series thus far!

That's the one. Cool guy, Untural. Thanks!

[Assail]

High Mage of Mockra, on Aug 23 2008, 06:11 PM, said:

Sorry if there is already a thread on this but my search function isn't working.

This is for a discussion about the three inter-connected warrens of Thyr, Maenas,Rashan and of course their Elder counterparts. I would like to hear everyone's views on them and the other things that also work the same way as those warrens such as the Hounds, etcetera.

My personal question though, is the relationship between the Hounds of Shadow and Darkness and their allegiances. I do not quite understand that.

Although I haven't read TtH, most of what you're asking is either fully explained, or partially (Enough to sate your curiosity atleast ). The hounds and the functions of warrens/holds still are extremely vague and aren't fully explained. It'll come though.

[Kryphon]

Erickson is a master of giving us all enough to THINK we have a firm grasp on all this crap without ever really explaining it fully. What we have are solid theories and an accepted set of beliefs that kinda explain how things work. And because SE is such an amazing author and because his characters and the storyline are so awesome we forgive him for leaving us in the dark about so much. And if it was simple as, say... Dragonlance crap there would be no need for these forums! I for one NEED this as a distraction while at work :-P

[Paradoxical Dr??]

Kryphon, on Apr 29 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

And if it was simple as, say... Dragonlance crap there would be no need for these forums!

Aye!! I happen to like Dragonlance, well, the ones with the original companions anyway. Long live Raistlin

[Kryphon]

Paradoxical Dr??, on Apr 29 2009, 03:41 AM, said:

Kryphon, on Apr 29 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

And if it was simple as, say... Dragonlance crap there would be no need for these forums!

Aye!! I happen to like Dragonlance, well, the ones with the original companions anyway. Long live Raistlin

I like the old ones as well, but they don't require any thought and there certainly isnt anything to discuss after reading them. They were great books for a 14 year old to start reading.. SE is more adult.

[Fisher]

Not sure about the Hounds, but I agree with what has been posted so far. Meanas and Rashan seem to share a close relationship and have been referred to as Meanas Rashan a few times throughout the series. Keep in mind that while we've seen plenty of Meanas users, we haven't seen all that many Thyr mages. I think Tattersail was the only one, actually.

Random bit of trivia: Pust is a master of all three warrens.

[Kryphon]

Fisher, on May 9 2009, 08:48 AM, said:

Not sure about the Hounds, but I agree with what has been posted so far. Meanas and Rashan seem to share a close relationship and have been referred to as Meanas Rashan a few times throughout the series. Keep in mind that while we've seen plenty of Meanas users, we haven't seen all that many Thyr mages. I think Tattersail was the only one, actually.

Random bit of trivia: Pust is a master of all three warrens.

Is he really? I can't wait till he's fully unleashed. Bobody seems in awe of his power or intimidated by him at all, but I want to see him unleashed. And I NEED another 25-30 pages of his rants!

[Aptorian]

Fisher, on May 9 2009, 05:48 PM, said:

Random bit of trivia: Pust is a master of all three warrens.

Random trivia: Pust is a lying liar.

He probably is a master of all three anyway, but never take anything the guy says at facevalue.

(I am of course assuming this was something Pust said)

[Nina]

Perhaps, this is not the right place to ask (I am sure this question was asked somewhere, but sorry, I couldn't find the topic):
When in the GotM QB explains to Tattersail the meaning of Light / Dark warrens and first introduces the Tiste Edur - it must be "Meanas is a false Warren" and not Rashan (in my edition it's Rashan, but I know some editions have Meanas). Just would like to clear it up for sure.

[Sinisdar Toste]

hmmm... sounds like a GotMism... but maybe not. quick ben knows a good bit about the warrens. im gonna say that you should consider meanas as the real warren he was talking about, as in other books it is called the "gatehouse" of elder shadow, and a "shadow of a shadow"

[Red King]

From what I gather about the Hounds of Shadows and the Hounds of Darkness, is that the Deragoth came first and are far more powerful then the hounds of shadow. The current hounds seem like they are lesser versions of the Deragoth. Thats about all I got, i'm pretty confident someone has spoken about this already and i'm just looking like a Jackass right now.

- Ultor

[Verjigorm]

First Sword Ultor, on 17 March 2010 - 08:22 AM, said:

From what I gather about the Hounds of Shadows and the Hounds of Darkness, is that the Deragoth came first and are far more powerful then the hounds of shadow. The current hounds seem like they are lesser versions of the Deragoth. Thats about all I got, i'm pretty confident someone has spoken about this already and i'm just looking like a Jackass right now.

- Ultor

I'm just about 200 pages into MT, so I don't have the insight of having read all the books. So far, my theory regarding the Deragoth's connection to the Hounds of shadow is that they are trapped/lesser shadows of the original Deragoth's souls.
There seem to be 7 Hounds of each, Rake dragnipured 2 of them, and Paran released their souls to an unknown place. From my point of view, they are the two "living" Deragoth. The souls went into the statues. The other 5 don't have life in them, cause their souls are still inside the Hounds of shadow. But I guess, cause there is a book called "Toll the hounds", I eventually find out there, if I'm correct or not about the relation.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Verjigorm, on 17 March 2010 - 04:18 PM, said:

First Sword Ultor, on 17 March 2010 - 08:22 AM, said:

From what I gather about the Hounds of Shadows and the Hounds of Darkness, is that the Deragoth came first and are far more powerful then the hounds of shadow. The current hounds seem like they are lesser versions of the Deragoth. Thats about all I got, i'm pretty confident someone has spoken about this already and i'm just looking like a Jackass right now.

- Ultor

I'm just about 200 pages into MT, so I don't have the insight of having read all the books. So far, my theory regarding the Deragoth's connection to the Hounds of shadow is that they are trapped/lesser shadows of the original Deragoth's souls.
There seem to be 7 Hounds of each, Rake dragnipured 2 of them, and Paran released their souls to an unknown place. From my point of view, they are the two "living" Deragoth. The souls went into the statues. The other 5 don't have life in them, cause their souls are still inside the Hounds of shadow. But I guess, cause there is a book called "Toll the hounds", I eventually find out there, if I'm correct or not about the relation.

toll the hounds reveals tons, tons about the hounds that we didn't know before. well, tons in a relative sense.

[worry]

Sinisdar Toste, on 17 March 2010 - 08:40 PM, said:

toll the hounds reveals tons, tons about the hounds that we didn't know before. well, tons in a relative sense.

indeed, karsa lifts each hound and tells us their weights, by tonnage.