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Who is Chain

#1 User is offline   Pallol One Eye 

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 05:38 PM

Forgive me if this has been brought up elsewere!

I am re-reading House of Chains at the moment. I noticed something in the Glossary that I missed first time around. There are the following listings in the UK edition MMPB pages:

In High House of Chains we Have The King in Chains Page 1019
Spoiler

In Ascendants we have The Crippled God, The Fallen One, Lord of High House of Chains Page 1017
In Unaligned we have: Chain. Page 1020

Who is this Chain? Any thoughts. I thought it maight be The Chained God, but why get mentioned as unalighed if he's lord of HHC

I am only 360 pages into the UK MMPB edition and I have not come across any mention of this unaligned being. I don't remember there being any other mention, but its been a few years since I read the book. IDidn't find a listing in the Malazan wiki either. :confused:
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#2 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 10:10 PM

Well since you asked I suppose I'm not spoiling anything involuntarily...

the Chain is an unaligned force that generally isn't related to a person, just like Orb, Sceptre, Throne and Crown. They have a tendency to represent personalities or inter-personal connections. There are definitely no characters "holding those places" since they're not even in Houses. Of course they can still represent people when revealed in castings of the Deck of Dragons.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#3 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 06:33 AM

The Point is that the CG isn't actually a part of the House of Chains.

So Chain may very well be his card.

The Ascendant list and the Deck of Dragons list aren't the same.
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#4 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 07:16 AM

A card in the deck isn't a "being", it's just a card... the positions this cards represent can be occupied by a long-term character (such as Hood being King of High House Death) or short-term (such as Whiskeyjack being Mason of High House Death for about one chapter in GotM). The same is true with the unaligned, and we have never seen anything to suggest the position of Chain is actually occupied by anyone important.

It's important to remember too, the deck is constantly in flux, changing... cards come and go, and can have different meanings sometimes dependant on something as seemingly irrelevant geographical location, even!
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
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#5 User is offline   Pallol One Eye 

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 11:41 AM

Duh, I knew that! Smart enough to remember who the King in chains is, I had forgotten that the Crippled God wasn't actually part of High House of Chains.

So much for that vaunted education of mine. Amnesia and senility, wipes the slate clean every time. At least I be able to keep on enjoying the books, over and over an over.
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#6 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 12:50 AM

caladanbrood;361896 said:

A card in the deck isn't a "being", it's just a card... the positions this cards represent can be occupied by a long-term character (such as Hood being King of High House Death) or short-term (such as Whiskeyjack being Mason of High House Death for about one chapter in GotM). The same is true with the unaligned, and we have never seen anything to suggest the position of Chain is actually occupied by anyone important.


True enough, but when there isn't a person long-term occupying a position like King of High House Death, people say that the spot is 'vacant', while people possibly occupying the unaligned 'forces' are never even mentioned.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#7 User is offline   caladanbrood 

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:14 AM

Not entirely true. Obelisk has been Icarium and Burn and Brood at various times... and Kallor is implied as Crown in MoI I believe. the unaligned are rarer cards though, because the meanings are more obscure.
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
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#8 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:45 AM

I always thought Obelisk was a unique unaligned, just like Master of the Deck, while it was Orb, Throne, Sceptre, Crown and Chain
Spoiler

that were the so-called 'forces of nature' or what-have you. And thus Crown connected to Kallor, for example, would just be an elaborate way of saying Kallor was a leader.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#9 User is offline   Old Hunch Arbat 

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 05:03 AM

I decided, finally, to look up the definition of obelisk: Marker, reference point, dagger. Those definitions made me realize that those designated as Obelisk, Chain, etc., by the author himself, then become pivotal characters serving specific roles in each book/plot line. That they turn up as represented by a card in the deck is no surprise, simply because the author needs yet another device to keep the readers' focus appropriately directed.

It also makes me realize that each character whether listed as either holding a position within a house, or as a "function" player specifically does so only so far as the story requires us to view that character, at that particular time, as holding that position. As the story progresses, and as our attention is drawn to different actions by different players at different times the character in those positions changes.

For instance...in one book perhaps Icarium is listed as "Obelisk" and has a card in the deck representing him (Obelisk, naturally). All that means is...hey, pay attention, Icarium is the reference point in this book against which all other actions and characters are measured. In another book Burn might be listed as "Obelisk" and thus becomes the reference point, or pivot upon which the story line turns. Similarly the Unaligned position of "Chain" simply implies yet another function (a major "linking" of characters, plots, events) that can be served by anyone, according to the author's intentions. Placing a character (i.e. Fiddler) in the Deck of Dragons in one of the books, and having him appear as the Chain card is SE's way of saying..."Oh by the way, Fiddler is the one who is linking all these events together so, yoo hoo, pay attention." (That is NOT a spoiler by the way.)

As a matter of fact, each card represents not a static or fixed position, but a particular function at a particular time. Perhaps we could say the "function" is static in that "Chain" always links events/characters/actions, and "Obelisk" is always a reference point - however, we should not be surprised to see any number of characters appearing/listed in any number of house positions, or as represented by an unaligned card, according to the needs of the evolving story line, yet disappearing from that position from book to book, over even within the space of a single book.

Toblaki, for instance, in the book "House of Chains" is listed as Knight in High House Chains. That is not a fixed position (hey you ugly fuck, here's your official HHC Knight decoder ring - and ever more shall be - Amen), and we should not expect Toblaki, necessarily to remain as listed in that position. He's only the Knight insofar as he serves a "knightly" function for HHC during the course of that plot's evolution. Thus there is no conflict between his actions, which might appear to be contrary to the CG's momentary plans (killing a bunch of CG devotees or something similar) and, more importantly, the ultimate consequences of those actions - furthering the goals of the CG during the period covered by this book - as SE sees the CG's place in this enormous story. Toblaki simply moves the CG's plans forward according to some plan that none but the CG (and SE) are aware of.

In the same book (HHC) Anomander Rake is listed as Knight of High House Dark. To me this says NOT that AR is forever in that position because of some inherent right (birth, a job promotion, etc.) but because he serves a knightly role for Mother Dark - her "knight in shining armor" as it were. I wold not be surprised to see someone else in that position, perhaps even for only one book, if that someone better serves the Knightly role for HHD. I know that seems unlikely but I say it to make a point. Similarly Kallor is listed as (?Reaver) of HHC because he "seizes and carries off forcibly, deprives (one) of something, bereaves, robs, plunders" in a manner that serves HHC at the time this book was written. Maybe he'll remain in that position, maybe not - but only so long as he robs, plunders, etc., in a manner which serves HHC. He may be replaced at a later date according to the needs of the story. He is not permanently in that position (neccessarily).


I would go far as to say that all the cards in the Deck of Dragons are nothing more than plot devices, and a means for the author to direct our attention to particular actions within the plot so as to reduce confusion and connect the cast of characters. They all represent functions assigned to characters that, for at least that particular book, establish and define relationships. And those who hold positions within houses may hold those positions for periods of time varying from very short to indefinite, but only so long as the author needs us to know that that character serves that specific house in a particular way. The House position names may be unvarying but those who are assigned those names may vary from book to book.

And isn't this sort of how Dungeons and Dragons is played? SE deals out the cards to various characters, and they have to serve that function - play the hand they were dealt so to speak. Is this what a Dungeon Master is?

IMO.

OHA
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#10 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:34 PM

I disagree. I think that the characters who have set positions in the Houses remain in that position until ousted. I believe that no other person can be the Knight of Dark unless Anomander is ousted and they take his spot. The determining of the position is dependent on many factors, including the patronage of the King or Queen of that House (think of Gethol getting kicked out by Hood in MoI but accepted by the CG).
That being said, while there are permanent positions in the Houses, an individual Deck reading can use a particular card to represent the actions of someone other then the fixed position. A good example would be how the Rope card often reflects the actions of Kalam or Apsalar. This is because they are of like nature to the Rope and also connected to him. But if, perse, Vorcan were to do a very typical assassin thing, I do not believe the Rope card could represent her in a reading because she has nothing to do with House Shadow. At no time does Kalam or Apsalar or Vorcan become the Rope, however. Cotillion remains the Rope in terms of his position in High House Shadow and his "fixed" position in the Deck. You have to consider that he could be doing something at the same time somewhere else, and in that place a reading would correspond directly to his actions.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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