[Battalion]

But he still killed him though, right? Karsa got thrown through the air by Heboric way back in DG I think.

[Dance]

Battalion;358656 said:

But he still killed him though, right? Karsa got thrown through the air by Heboric way back in DG I think.

One of the Malazan themes is that everyone is vulnerable to some extent. Surprise attacks take out a lot of characters - I think Karsa has been knocked out/taken out by four so far (Calm, Mappo, Urko, Heboric). On the other hand, Heboric ends up getting taken out in a surprise attack by the Unbound, and we've seen Karsa wipe the floor with them.

Kallor vs WJ: WJ was pressing Kallor back, Kallor trips and falls. WJ's leg breaks on the followup, which leaves him open. Keep in mind that you'd assume the leg is hurting WJ and limiting him while he fights, and not just when it breaks. I'd argue WJ was better - or at least, in the same league. I can't see Karsa having an issue with either of them (though Kallor might surprise him - he has been around the block for eras and knows a few tricks).

[HalfTere]

Adding Trull, Gruntle, Tool, Lostara Yil, Mappo, Iskaral Pust, Iskaral Pust's mule, Kruppe, Terminator*, Fiddler and Mael.

Also Promoting Kalam and Icarium (the the latter not much - he can destroy a city, but is a tool, in all senses of the word).

Demoting Tavore and Laseen.

[Perashaman]

Calm, Heboric and Urko were all before Karsa reached the level of power he is at right now in the series. What with his flint sword, the experience, the maturing he has done, and undoubtedly an unassailable confidence he is a much stronger, better and smarter fighter at this point in the series than when he was defeated by anybody.

Mael is even more badass than he would normally be because he doesn't flaunt his power. A lot of people kinda forget about him and he is okay with that until somebody pisses him off badly. Then they are screwed.

Kallor is overrated. Back in the day he had a whole lot of power. Decimated his entire realm, and cursed three elder gods - that is a pretty damn strong case for badass. However, in his brooding and aging he is just a miserable old chump. Undoubtedly he is still superior to many in fighting and his sheer experience would make him a knowledgable and valuable commander. But he would have gotten destroyed by Whiskeyjack if his knee hadn't shattered. And Whiskeyjack would get smashed by Dassem Ultor, any of the top, what, 15-20 Seguleh?, Karsa, Icarium, Iron Bars, Trull, Silchas Ruin, Anomander Rake, the Crimson Guard Avowed that are superior to Iron Bars, etc. The largest share of Kallor's badassness comes from him just being a crazy and evil bastard with no moral qualms.

[Perashaman]

Known battles/Rankings:

Spoiler

Karsa Orlong>Rhulad

Brys Beddict>Rhulad
Karsa > Icarium (when not in full bloodlust for sure)

Spoiler

Icarium>Trull (Yeah, managed to defend, but couldn't hold forever)>Silchas Ruin? (Injured him, but Silchas can probably take a lot of injuries before he goes down)

Silchas Ruin> Iron Bars? Hard to say, Iron Bars weaked the Tarthenal gods severely but Silchas took care of em pretty quickly when he arrived
Kalam> entire Claw
Apsalar> entire Claw
Kalam vs. Apsalar? Tough one.

Spoiler

Seguleh Third> K'Chain Che'Malle > Redmask (I know, circumstances aren't precise, but still)

Seguleh Third > Tool
K'Chain Che'Malle > Gruntle
Dassem Ultor>Whiskeyjack>Kallor
Rake > Raest

All I can think of right now.

[HalfTere]

Perashaman;358846 said:

Known battles/Rankings:

Karsa Orlong>Rhulad
Brys Beddict>Rhulad
Karsa > Icarium (when not in full bloodlust for sure)
Icarium>Trull (Yeah, managed to defend, but couldn't hold forever)>Silchas Ruin? (Injured him, but Silchas can probably take a lot of injuries before he goes down)
Silchas Ruin> Iron Bars? Hard to say, Iron Bars weaked the Tarthenal gods severely but Silchas took care of em pretty quickly when he arrived
Kalam> entire Claw
Apsalar> entire Claw
Kalam vs. Apsalar? Tough one.
Seguleh Third> K'Chain Che'Malle > Redmask (I know, circumstances aren't precise, but still)
Seguleh Third > Tool
K'Chain Che'Malle > Gruntle
Dassem Ultor>Whiskeyjack>Kallor
Rake > Raest

All I can think of righ tnow.

First of all, you're spoiling it for me somewhat with this post. Second, badassness and battle ability, though they do often correlate, are not always directly connected. For instance, Iskaral Pust could probably destroy Iron Bars if they were ever to meet and he had the desire. However, Iron Bars is still far more badass than Iskaral Pust.

[Illuyankas]

Also, non-Mortal Sword Gruntle. And I thought you were up to TTH, HalfTere?

[HalfTere]

A person can't be two people. You don't rank "non-mortal sword gruntle" and "mortal sword gruntle" at the same time, otherwise the chart would have it's upper quarter filled with half a dozen Karsa Orlongs, which would be stupid.

A character's most recent incarnation (that I have read) is placed on the list.

I'm in the middle of Bonehunters, but this forum is more active, so I posted here.

[Perashaman]

Half, yeah sorry about that. Most of the things that I put on there were known before RG and for the couple that were in RG they for the most part could have been inferred or don't really spoil the plot.

I'll try to go back and edit it for spoiler tags.

[Perashaman]

I purposely didn't include the magic users in my list as well. Just weapons fighters.

[Battalion]

Perashaman;358846 said:

Known battles/Rankings:


Dassem Ultor>Whiskeyjack>Kallor
Rake > Raest

All I can think of right now.

Sorry, I don't get this?

Dassem didn't fight Whiskeyjack, so how can it be a "known battle"?
Also, You've put Whiskeyjack as winning against Kallor when he LOST. He got KILLED.
And Rake didn't fight Raest at all, did he?

I'm being a dick, I know, but the Kallor Whiskeyjack thing always bugs me.

[Illuyankas]

WJ was described as being able to defend against Dassem for a while.

[Raraku]

Adding some more from RotCG and TtH SPOILERS haven't read RotCG yet but what i ve gotten from the forums

Spoiler

Rake>Dassem>Skinner>Kallor=Iron Bars(not sure about the last one)
Also Brys v/s Rhulad was much before Rhulad died many more times and gained a lot of power.
Segulah 2nd>Karsa again not sure but i just prefer it this way

[acesn8s]

What about the Ashok mage. He was the one who dropped the dhenrabi capturing spell on Karsa back in The House of Chains. Being able to the Teblor with a spell he can't easily shake off is pretty friggin badass.

[Perashaman]

1. The Ashok mage was able to hold Karsa before Karsa's "full" power and basically just full force of will was realized. At the current point in the book I think Karsa would just smash them all pretty easily. Maybe not though.

2. I WAS using the reference that Whiskeyjack could hold Dassem off from time to time for a while but in the end Dassem would beat him. So yes, they never truly fought, only sparred, and we never see it, but it is pretty much told to us that Dassem would win.

3. Yes, it is true, Whiskeyjack lost the fight. But his pure skill was greater than Kallor's. He was able to parry everything thrown at him by Kallor and had the opportunity to kill him, but a completely random bum knee snapping prevented this, allowing a surprise opening that Kallor took advantage of.
I understand Kallor won, but it was through circumstance, not skill.

4

Spoiler

And yes, Rhulad died many more times since Brys killed him, gaining in skill. But when Brys is brought back at the end of RG it is initially for the purpose of killing Rhulad, right? The clearly very powerful people involved in resurrecting Brys had full confidence that he could once again carve Rhulad up. Just the precision and ease with which he absolutely destroyed Rhulad the first time is ridiculous. He was clearly underrated and ignored. Who knows?

[HalfTere]

It's clear that Karsa has "leveled up", so to speak, especially with claiming the flint sword.

It's also clear that Dassem Ultor must be a damn good swordsman.

But what does this have to do with badassness?

[Perashaman]

Sorry, Half. Went off topic from the original post. But, to be fair, swordsmanship at the very least has some bearing on badassness. I mean, the different categories that add up to being full blown badass would include..

Attitude obviously.
Killing ability/ Martial prowess.
Intelligence (If Kruppe and Tehol are on the list, than this is obviously a factor)
Friends in high places?
Reputation.

So while who can kill who in a swordfight isn't the only consideration, it is certainly part of it.

And leveling up seems like a good way to put it.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I think there's something you don't understand about Kallor vs WJ.
Kallor tripped, WJ leaned on his bad leg which broke,Kallor killed him.
We all know that had the duel continued WJ would have won but don't you think that once Kallor had realized this he would have simply burned WJ to cinders with chaotic power?

[Perashaman]

And since we're talking about having rules and stipulations here, i.e. solely swordfighting with no sorcery, I would say that that negates your point about Kallor's sorcery. However, when would Kallor ever hold to such stipulations in a fight where he is being hard pressed? Due to Kallor's complete lack of honor he wouldn't feel beholden to such rules.

A misstep is a sign that you haven't adequately surveyed the ground of battle, or that you were perhaps somewhat careless. A bone snapping is just a tragic coincidence, although I suppose one could argue that WJ should have favored the other leg.

[HalfTere]

Insulting Kallor just because he would fight dirty? There's nothing wrong with that.

Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. - Vince Lombardi (who I am now adding to the badass list)