[Terez]

I've only read the series once, with the exception of Gardens of the Moon, which I've read twice, so I probably won't add much to the discussions on plot twists and whatnot because I don't remember enough of the details to have a comprehensive picture of the nature of the beast. That being said, I do have some thoughts on the book that don't really fit into any of the threads I looked into, so I started a new one.

I came off with the overall impression that SE stepped up a big notch in this book as far as literary quality. And I'm not saying it was lacking before - far from it - but it seems like nearly every square inch of the text in this book was packed with high fantasy creative writing goodness. And again, Erikson has delivered this quality of writing since book one, but it seems to become gradually more pervasive as the series progresses, and steps up a sharp notch in this volume.

The narration aspect in particular I think helped a great deal to step it up that notch. Sometimes Kruppe is clearly the narrator, sometimes not as clearly but still evidently, but Kruppe is pervasive in the entire telling of the story. Kruppe, the brains of the operation, the guy who knows damn near everything. Fisher is a storyteller through song, but Kruppe has the wordiness necessary to tell the story in good detail. I just find it odd that K'rul said that he'd never seen Kruppe dance by word. What else does Kruppe do with words but dance? Oh, he imparts the relevant details when it suits him, but he buries it all beneath loquacious innuendo that distracts and diverts from the relevant details. I guess I should grant that Kruppe has rather different conversations with K'rul than he does with other people. But still...

[EDIT: I've read elsewhere now that a lot of you really didn't like this about the book. But it's just a matter of taste, I suppose...I get the impression that most of you if the books were just a neverending action scene, but to me that gets boring. I like the philosophizing, because it's not in any way preachy, because it's not in any way conclusive philosophizing...it instead raises a lot of questions that have no apparent answers. Food for thought.]

Kallor's moment over ancient Jaghut history was decidedly odd. Skipping past that...the theme of banality, or inconsequential things, was poetic in many ways. We had a bit of it from Kallor, and a bit from Mappo. Kallor has contempt for the banal; Mappo posits that everything in life that's worthy anything is banal; the poem/song at the beginning of chapter 5 seems to speak for both of them, oddly. And the whole theme makes an unveiling of yet another false dichotomy, another exposition of the means by which two people can believe the same thing yet reach different conclusions, or reach the same conclusions via opposing beliefs.

Anyway, more thoughts later, but that's good for now.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Personally I feel like SE is building up towards something grand. I like the way the tone of the series is changing.

[Terez]

I agree - I very much got that feeling in this book. The philosophizing, and the Kruppe narration, had a lot to do with that feeling of buildup, for me.

[kalmavet7]

Normally, i enjoy the philosophizing in SE's books but this one just had too much. too many characters straddled the line between 'ooh good thought' and 'stfu mhybe!' for me. I still loved the book but i felt it was bogged down in parts.

All that said, the end payoff was absolutely amazing! and i wonder if i'll enjoy the earlier parts knowing what i know now when i re-read it.

I'm curious: for those that have re-read it, did you enjoy it more? less? how about compared to re-reads of the other books? did you skip certain inner monologues?

[Raraku]

I thought that the inner monologues were really well done and the philosofical analogies were beautifully done. I agree with most people that the fact that Kruppe was narrating caused it to be a little rambling but i thoroughly enjoyed it.

[HoosierDaddy]

Raraku;355573 said:

I thought that the inner monologues were really well done and the philosofical analogies were beautifully done. I agree with most people that the fact that Kruppe was narrating caused it to be a little rambling but i thoroughly enjoyed it.

Kruppe's introductions and asides were often hilarious and did a very good job of road-mapping what was getting ready to happen because S.E. was switching povs so often.

[eekwibble]

Terez;355374 said:

another exposition of the means by which two people can believe the same thing yet reach different conclusions, or reach the same conclusions via opposing beliefs.

I was having a conversation with Mezla in the pub after the Manc signing and she mentioned aboot the conflicting but well thought out arguments that SE comes up with via different character's viewpoints (eg. Karos Invictad's and Silchas Ruin's) and she was asking (probably rhetorically but I took it literally) "Which way should you take it? Which view is right?"

'An interesting question' thought I, but rather than put my already half pickled brain through an extended discussion at the time, I answered with a quote from SE during the talk: "I love writing characters that challenge my own world views" (paraphrase).

I love reading them and challenging my own, so long may it continue.

I love Kruppe's narratorial dialogue. I didn't think I would but I find it intriguing and addictive. :eek:

[Abyss]

reposted bcs apropos this discussion...

Abyss;354666 said:

This was, without a doubt, the most cerebral of the MBFs so far. SE, via various voices, quite literally thinks about weighty issues. I had an initial 'oh no' reaction, but then i started reading them closely. The thing is, TtH really does not read as well in the omg omg barrel thru get to tend post on the forum how cool was that way that most of the previous books do. You can, quite easily, skim thru the various pontifications and not lose any of the impact of the last 200 pages or so, because that is quite possibly some of the best fantasy action dram ever written, BUT, i suggest that on the reread, sloooooow down. There's a reason it took me longer than usual to get back to the forum and that's because this book required a slower pace from me. I tried to put the context of what the author was saying into what the characteres were doing. It's not easy - i'm looking fwd to the reread to try a little harder, but the point is this:



If you've come this far, through seven previous doorstopper novels, because you think this author is great and awesome and worth your time, than maybe the author has something interesting to say beyond stick sword a into body part b and describe splatter fx... not in the condescending and pretentious way certain other authors who shall remain nameless (hint: one makes me bleed from my eyes) do, but in a genuine hey, here's what i think and maybe while you're reading, chew on it a little sort of way.



I could be wrong, but at least for moi, TtH works on many levels because oif the differences from previous books, not in spite of them.





- Abyss, ummmm, not that there's anything wrong with a lot of sword-into-body-part-equals-bloodsplatter tho...

- Abyss, because self-repetition is the sincerest form of self-flattery...

[Terez]

Abyss;356024 said:

reposted bcs apropos this discussion...

- Abyss, because self-repetition is the sincerest form of self-flattery...

On that note:

AIM said:

10:34:47 AM Terez: lots of people bitched about the philosophizing in this one
10:34:49 AM Terez: I enjoyed it
10:34:52 AM Macros: yeah
10:35:06 AM Macros: it wasnt goodkind objectivism
10:35:16 AM Macros: it was a bit of decent thinking
10:35:30 AM Terez: yeah
10:35:35 AM Terez: like I said on the tth forum
10:35:58 AM Terez: it's good philosophizing, because it's not at all preachy - it's just a matter of raising a lot of questions that have no apparent answers
10:36:01 AM Terez: food for thought
10:36:11 AM Macros: thats hit the nail on the head
10:36:29 AM Macros: why cant i organize my thoughts in such an eloquant and coherent fashion?
10:36:43 AM Macros: had i tried to say that it would have been a page long ramblwe to come to the same conclusion