[Terez]

The cards she placed:

Darujhistan
The Rope
Obelisk
Soldier of Death
Crown
Knight of Darkness
King of High House Death
King in Chains
Dessembrae
The Tyrant

So, Darujhistan, The Rope, obvious. Obelisk...Brood? Soldier of Death, Gaz? Who is Crown? Knight of Darkness, King of High House Death, King in Chains, Dessembrae, obvious. Who was the Tyrant? Surely not Raest...or was it? He did play....surely not Dev'ad Anan Tol...

[kalmavet7]

Terez;355243 said:

The cards she placed:

Darujhistan
The Rope
Obelisk
Soldier of Death
Crown
Knight of Darkness
King of High House Death
King in Chains
Dessembrae
The Tyrant

So, Darujhistan, The Rope, obvious. Obelisk...Brood? Soldier of Death, Gaz? Who is Crown? Knight of Darkness, King of High House Death, King in Chains, Dessembrae, obvious. Who was the Tyrant? Surely not Raest...or was it? He did play....surely not Dev'ad Anan Tol...

I've always thought of Obelisk as Burn or someone connected to Burn, so Brood works. Soldier of Death is now Baudin, who somehow switched roles w/ the new Knight of Death (Segulah 2nd). I'm not sure how this happened but i don't care since this fits the roles better imo.

The Tyrant storyline was for me the most disappointing in the book. it seems like we are still waiting for him to surface OR the fact that his card has been played means he's there and we know about him. Karsa? what other ascendents were in Daru that weren't 'played'?

finally, who is crown? it can't be Kallor if he's King in Chains. or can someone play dual-roles so to speak? for that matter, does every ascendant involved show up in a reading? I'm probably trying to hard to fix rules to the deck ....

[HoosierDaddy]

kalmavet7;355347 said:

I've always thought of Obelisk as Burn or someone connected to Burn, so Brood works. Soldier of Death is now Baudin, who somehow switched roles w/ the new Knight of Death (Segulah 2nd). I'm not sure how this happened but i don't care since this fits the roles better imo.

The Tyrant storyline was for me the most disappointing in the book. it seems like we are still waiting for him to surface OR the fact that his card has been played means he's there and we know about him. Karsa? what other ascendents were in Daru that weren't 'played'?

finally, who is crown? it can't be Kallor if he's King in Chains. or can someone play dual-roles so to speak? for that matter, does every ascendant involved show up in a reading? I'm probably trying to hard to fix rules to the deck ....

1. You can have dual roles see the C.G. in TBH, both Deathstealer and another role can't remember it.
2. No, not every ascendant is in each reading otherwise the damned thing would take forever. Merely those that are intersecting with the reader/crucial events at that point, in the immediate past, or in the immediate future. I.E.: if a convergence is coming those in the immediate area will probably see it happening.
3. Crown is probably Kallor, as that is ever what he is seeking.
4. The Tyrant's storyline (according to sources on here who talked to S.E.)will be finished by ICE and not in S.E.'s 10 book series.

[kalmavet7]

HoosierDaddy;355350 said:

1. You can have dual roles see the C.G. in TBH, both Deathstealer and another role can't remember it.
2. No, not every ascendant is in each reading otherwise the damned thing would take forever. Merely those that are intersecting with the reader/crucial events at that point, in the immediate past, or in the immediate future. I.E.: if a convergence is coming those in the immediate area will probably see it happening.
3. Crown is probably Kallor, as that is ever what he is seeking.
4. The Tyrant's storyline (according to sources on here who talked to S.E.)will be finished by ICE and not in S.E.'s 10 book series.

Re:

1. Good point. was he King in Chains in BH (in addition to Deathstealer)?
2. Right, by involved i meant the ones in the main convergence. should've been more clear. though, now it occurs to me that Envy and Spite weren't mentioned, so it would seem there some obvious flexibility and ambiguity to it
3. agreed, making him both King in Chains and Crown? or could the Crippled God be King? he didn't really do much though
4. ah that is great news, now i need not be frustrated

[HoosierDaddy]

kalmavet7;355353 said:

Re:

1. Good point. was he King in Chains in BH (in addition to Deathstealer)?
2. Right, by involved i meant the ones in the main convergence. should've been more clear. though, now it occurs to me that Envy and Spite weren't mentioned, so it would seem there some obvious flexibility and ambiguity to it
3. agreed, making him both King in Chains and Crown? or could the Crippled God be King? he didn't really do much though
4. ah that is great news, now i need not be frustrated

RE:

1. I think he might have just been "Chain" as well as Deathstealer. King back then was Rhulad.
2. The deck remains a mystery. Reading it is something that certain adepts could do: Tayschrenn, Kruppe, & Tattersail in GoTM, Fiddler (DG), Spindle (MOI) in later books, otherwise it's very hard to follow.
3. ROTCG spoilers:

Spoiler

Skinner has become King of Chains. How long that title will remain, is however, debatable.

.

[kalmavet7]

haha how could i forget rhulad was king! i'll have to refrain from the spoiler, thanks for blacking it out. ROTCG should get here soon..

[Terez]

kalmavet7;355347 said:

Soldier of Death is now Baudin, who somehow switched roles w/ the new Knight of Death (Segulah 2nd). I'm not sure how this happened but i don't care since this fits the roles better imo.

I fail to see how Baudin could have been Soldier of Death when he played no role whatsoever in the Darujhistan events. It has to Gaz.

I considered Kallor for both Crown and Tyrant. The major players I can think of with no assigned card:

Kallor
Envy
Spite
Karsa
Spinnock
Kruppe

Also, Pust was there but his card was not played, probably because he played no important part. That doesn't rule out Kruppe, but Kruppe doesn't really fit Crown or Tyrant.

Crown represents justice, so maybe Hood was represented by that card as well as his own (and that makes it harder to believe it was Kallor).

[Dolorous Menhir]

Crown also referred to Darujhistan itself in a GotM reading.

[Tiger_sword]

A clue is in the way the cards werew drawn, Obelisk, soldier of Death and crown and the frame was Knight of Darkness (at which point sounds of Dragnipur can be heard) and on the other side King of High House Death, King in Chains and Dessembrae with the rope. The way I see it is the second nest drawn was those that Rake (Knight of Darkness) would battle, King of High house death - Hood and Dessambrae - DU, were two people Rake fought and King in chains could be one of those who sort the sword on the other hand soldier of death, Obelisk and crown seam linked to the events within the sword possibly the battle that took place, one could even represent the god that was born within the sword and the Tyrant card finished the spiral a sign of events to come.

[kalmavet7]

Events in the sword is a good way of looking at it. if so, the soldier of death could be Baudin or a more general representation of Hood's army, as opposed to Gaz who played a role but not as important as his wife's. Additionally, could other major characters in the sword--draconus, apsalar--be represented as obelisk/crown? I'm not sure how either card fits this theory or those 2 characters, but i think the sword thing is worth considering. The conversion worked on 2 levels really. A larger Daru convergence and then a meeting of great minds inside the sword itself. I need to re-read the part about Tiserra's reading but my book is being borrowed, alas.

Kallor as crown is still a bit fuzzy for me. Yes he's seeking a throne, but he doesn't actually have a crown. i still wonder if he's king in chains and crown is somewhat/someone different.

[Terez]

Baudin didn't play a major role within the sword, either - and Tiserra's reading was about Darujhistan. Every other player was in Darujhistan, so I doubt her reading had much to do with what happened inside the sword, beyond the events that took place in Darujhistan.

Yeah, it could have been Gaz's wife, since she was one actually dedicated to Hood, but Hood did make an appearance to Gaz, and gave him orders to keep killing people. But it definitely wasn't Baudin...

[kalmavet7]

i'm talking in circles here, sorta thinking outloud...but gaz's wife seems more like a Mason or something, not a soldier of house--ie-she "builds" the presence of Hood in the flesh. since the sword is in Daru i think it's fair to look for characters in there. we don't know for sure who some of the cards referred to either so there could be a couple in the sword.

also, for the whole soldier/knight of death switch, what if the card for soldier was still referring to the 2nd, who does show up to snag his lance and defend the sword, iirc

so yeah, i'm still not sure haha.

[Terez]

kalmavet7;355739 said:

since the sword is in Daru i think it's fair to look for characters in there.

I disagree.

kal said:

we don't know for sure who some of the cards referred to either so there could be a couple in the sword.

There are only 3 cards which aren't totally obvious, and there are plenty of candidates to choose from in the city. Your whole reasoning behind arguing that the people inside the sword should be included seems to be that you think Baudin should be the Soldier of Death, when he didn't even do anything important inside the sword, so why should it be him? And as for this:

kal said:

also, for the whole soldier/knight of death switch, what if the card for soldier was still referring to the 2nd, who does show up to snag his lance and defend the sword, iirc

He showed up to follow Hood's orders, and it seems to me extremely unlikely that he, above anyone else there, would be considered by the Deck to be important. Wasn't what Whiskeyjack and Brukhalian did more important? But even they were just following orders from Hood.

So, I still maintain that Gaz and his wife are the only believable candidates for Soldier of Death. It's difficult to undermine the importance of what they did, when it was their actions that apparently allowed Hood to come to Darujhistan and enact his plans.

[drinksinbars]

Terez;355792 said:

I disagree.


There are only 3 cards which aren't totally obvious, and there are plenty of candidates to choose from in the city. Your whole reasoning behind arguing that the people inside the sword should be included seems to be that you think Baudin should be the Soldier of Death, when he didn't even do anything important inside the sword, so why should it be him? And as for this:


He showed up to follow Hood's orders, and it seems to me extremely unlikely that he, above anyone else there, would be considered by the Deck to be important. Wasn't what Whiskeyjack and Brukhalian did more important? But even they were just following orders from Hood.

So, I still maintain that Gaz and his wife are the only believable candidates for Soldier of Death. It's difficult to undermine the importance of what they did, when it was their actions that apparently allowed Hood to come to Darujhistan and enact his plans.

thordy says to gaz as he dies - you did well as soldier of death, or something like that. and she calls herself mason of death.

[Cougar]

Remember the most important thing guys a position in a reading of the deck is not the same as a position in the houses. If you are read as a certain position it can mean you are that position, ie: Knight of Darkness is I think always Rake, but Fiddler is read as Soldier of Life and we've nothing further to suggest he holds this position.

Individuals intentions or influence may be represented by a card at a given time, Soldier of Death seems likely for Gaz, whether he ever has this position in the houses in reality is moot, although this would be a cock-eyed way of explaining how the Second and Baudin seem to have switched roles (my personal feeling about this is that it was a mistake)

Other cards don't have to represent individuals they can be circumstances, as the Bach loving kitten has pointed out if crown is taken to mean justice then it applies to the character of Hood's intnentions/actions.

[Terez]

Perhaps not, but has Knight of Darkness ever meant anyone other than Rake? King of High House Death anyone other than Hood?

I think most of the cards she played were definitely the obvious candidates, since they were all involved, but I think that trying to fit Baudin or anyone else other than Gaz and his wife into the role of Soldier of High House Death is stretching it.

[Cougar]

Sorry Terez I think you were writing while I was doing my edit there, it makes your post look odd.

I agree with everything you say.

[drinksinbars]

a reading of the deck just implies influence i think. when tiserra is doing her reading she even mentions how the rope is most likely vorcan even though The Rope is cotillion. The cards just represent events and who is doing what, yoiu dont own th ecard or the position, but are aligned with its aspect at the time of the reading or in the future.

[Cougar]

drinksinbars;355810 said:

A reading of the deck just implies influence I think... The cards just represent events and who is doing what, you dont own the card or the position, but are aligned with its aspect at the time of the reading or in the future.

Yes, I this is correct as far as I know. A particular character can be represented, ie: Knight of Darkness, but King of Death can just mean death rather than Hood turning up and having a wander round.

[Terez]

She doesn't say that it was most likely Vorcan...only this:

Chapter 15 said:

Her eyes strayed once more to The Rope. Is that you, Cotillion? Or has Vorcan returned? It's not just the Guild - the Guild means nothing here. No, there are faces behind that veil. There are terrible deaths coming. Terrible deaths.