[Tapper]

Couldn't the Crown be the T'orrud Kabal as the unofficial rulers of Darujhistan? After all, they were gathered there with Brood at the destruction of Dragnipur. Vorcan having a second representation as The Rope would make sense since she is also establishing herself in the city again, where Baruk and Derudan (sp.?) are still hiding behind their 'usual' identities.

[Cougar]

Terez;355825 said:

She doesn't say that it was most likely Vorcan...only this:

Yes, but at the time of the quote Vorcan has returned, it's possible that the Rope simply means the active prescence of assasins is significnat (so Vorcan and Cotillion). The cards aren't a news report on the future they are interpretations of forces in play so the Rope coming out can represent both Vorcan and Cottilion. It's possible that if one was active then Rope would have come out, but it can't come out twice. SE leaves this deliberately ambiguous.

[Use Of Weapons]

I think the quote from Terez, above, is SE deliberately telling us (though not explicitly) that the ambiguity in Deck readings is a deliberate thing, and that the more adept a reader of the Deck is, the more likely it is that they can see the possiblities. Tissera seems very accomplished, and her question to herself -- "Her eyes strayed once more to The Rope. Is that you, Cotillion? Or has Vorcan returned? It's not just the Guild - the Guild means nothing here." -- shows that she at least understands that a card can refer either to a player in the events, or to the holder of the position in the House.

I do think that Baudin holds the position of Soldier of Death, but also that in Tissera's reading, that card referred to Gaz, and possibly to both Gaz and his wife (though wasn't Mason in the reading also? Mason could be the wife).

[Tiger_sword]

It could be that the field evolved during her drawing, her initial aim was to get a snapshot of the city of events at that very instant thats when she pulled out the ropes card. I believe she wanted to understand what her husband was involved in, due to Vorcan's return the ropes card was a natural selection perhaps then she concentrated on HIS form (i.e. cotillion) and suddenly her pinned down field became a prophecy of the events that were about to unfold involving the rope himself.

[Terez]

Tapper;355832 said:

Couldn't the Crown be the T'orrud Kabal as the unofficial rulers of Darujhistan?

I considered them, in particular Baruk. Upon re-reading the bit at the end with Brood, I noticed this bit:

Epilogue said:

Baruk was by the door, eyeing Vorcan and Derudan. The last of the T'orrud Cabal. The taste in his mouth was of ashes.

There were servants hidden in the city, and they were even now at work. To bring about a fell return, to awaken one of the tyrants of old. Neither woman in this room was unaware of this, and the fear was palpable in its persistent distraction.

The fate of Darughistan - and of the T'orrud Cabal - was not their reason for being here, however.

So yeah...that does make Crown and Tyrant a bit more clear.

Tapper said:

After all, they were gathered there with Brood at the destruction of Dragnipur. Vorcan having a second representation as The Rope would make sense since she is also establishing herself in the city again, where Baruk and Derudan (sp.?) are still hiding behind their 'usual' identities.

I think it's probably impossible to separate Vorcan from Cotillion in this case. He is her patron god, after all, and he was there.

[caladanbrood]

I am confused by the inclusion of the Tyrant in that reading. The others have definite possibilities, in order of most likely:

Darujhistan
Cotillion/Cutter
Brood
Gaz and the Seguleh Second duality.
Kallor/T'orrud Cabal
Rake (probably a duality with Spinnock Durav, too)
Hood
Kallor again? (presumably not Karsa)
Dassem

But apart from that... what are the possibilities for the Tyrant. The only players not directly mentioned already were Pust, Kruppe, Karsa, Hounds of Light and their mysterious Master, Tulas Shorn, Spite, Envy, Karsa's kids/dog and I'll put Humble Measure in there too.

Pust and Kruppe aren't relevant, I don't think. Karsa as the Tyrant would be... amusing, but unlikely. The Hounds of Light and their Master are a significant possibility, I would think, due purely to the fact that it was a mysterious character and it has to be fairly powerful to control them. Shorn possible but unlikely. Spite and Envy, I think not, although if Envy had an estate in the city... you never know. Karsa's kids, NO, unless they represent the Teblor as a whole, but I think they're too distant to count.

Humble Measure is the most likely, as he seems to be working towards the Tyrant's return, but the problem with that is that he had no part in the finale... geugh


EDIT: 6000th post. Weee:D

edited again: There were a lot more players in that final scene on re-reading it, but none of them relevant to the Tyrant, I don't think.

[kalmavet7]

Terez, Cougar, et al, thanks for clearing alot of this up for me. new to boards, i'm still catching up on some theories and how the deck works is certainly one of them!

clearing up my confusion on being in the deck vs being a full-fledged member of a house clears up some of the confusion for sure, so thanks.

Nice job on the quote w/ Gaz (wish i had my book haha) being soldier of death. figured his wife was mason anyway.

so we're basically left wondering who exactly is the Tyrant w/ a few roles a little blurry but basically defined. Kallor is obv a part of the convergence but is his role significant enough to warrant 2 cards in the reading? (not that it necessarily even works that way) Tyrant = whoever the HoL were serving?

[Terez]

caladanbrood;355999 said:

I am confused by the inclusion of the Tyrant in that reading.

Yes, this is the big question. Crown I think could apply to a few different people who were involved, so no worries there. But Tyrant is confusing because of the multiplicity of the meaning of that word for Darujhistan and the players there. Obviously the most important Tyrant is the one that is being awakened, but Tiserra's reading was for the present, not the future...

Brood said:

Pust and Kruppe aren't relevant, I don't think.

Kruppe is always relevant!

Brood said:

EDIT: 6000th post. Weee:D

So that's what you were writing...

Brood said:

edited again: There were a lot more players in that final scene on re-reading it, but none of them relevant to the Tyrant, I don't think.

I doubt we'll come to a conclusion on either this one or Crown, then, since no one has put forth any truly convincing evidence for either. 'Twas a nice convergence, though.

[Abyss]

Gaz was not the Soldier of Death in the sense of the High House as nominated by Hood like Bausin and the Second - the reading may have been refing him in the context of the events she was plotting.

When his wife kills him, she says Gaz was 'a good soldier' - ie: he killed a lot of people for Hood. He was NOT being nominated to a position in the pantheon.

The Tyrant is in play because events related to the Tyrant are occuring, but the reference could as easily be to the agents at work in the city as the actual Tyrant individual.

Deck readings are not always literal or factual, there's a strong symbolic element.


- Abyss, also, a place in a reading and a position in a House are not the same thing, repeat a place in a reading and a position in a House are not the same thing, repeat
a place in a reading and a position in a House are not the same thing, repeat...

[Terez]

Abyss;356279 said:

Gaz was not the Soldier of Death in the sense of the High House as nominated by Hood like Bausin and the Second

Yeah, we know that. Like Whiskeyjack was Mason of High House Death for a stint, but only in the context of the events surrounding that particular reading...

It just so happens that the people who held the actual House positions for all but one of the House cards that were played were in Darujhistan. And, of the five cards that don't fall under a House, we can be fairly certain what three of them (Darujhistan, Dessembrae, and Obelisk) represent. And, we have a pretty darn good guess on who represented the Soldier of High House Death in this particular convergence...

Edit, for Brood: 500 posts! weeeeeee

[Giles]

also as i think someone in this thread mentioned that the crown represents justice or something like that, could it have ben referring to the HoL as it seems like the forces of Light are big on their justice thing, and they were after the swor dragnipur for reasons of justice or something like that, and them being framed by the rope and the Knight of Darkness would fit with 2 of them travelling with the hounds of shadow and then them all trying to recover dragnipur for their master.