[Lisheo]

Spoiler

In Lee of Laughters End, Emancipor Reese gives Bauchelain a description of something called a Jorligg, which sounds exactly like a KCCM being born from a host human, so its not limited to the Shake.

[biblioholic]

I always was under the impression that the K'Chain Che'Malle were the first species on Malazworld, analogous to dinosaurs here on Earth. Big, powerful, ultimately destroyed as newer creatures like mammals survived better...or were wiped out as the Tiste killed some Matrons.

As for the idea that the KCCM/KCNR are some sort of alien invaders, I can't recall reading that in the books. I also don't remember them keeping the Elder Gods away, way back when. Anyone want to help me recall these with some quotes?

I also thought that the Shake were part Tiste Andii...I distinctly recall Nomander Golit pondering this while on Second Maiden's Fort in Reaper's Gale. He says something about them not even recognizing their ancestry because it was so diluted. But I do agree that when reading about the Shake babies I immediately thought of the K'Chain Che'Malle. Maybe they're a twisted mix of Tiste and K'Chain?

[HoosierDaddy]

biblioholic;355086 said:

I always was under the impression that the K'Chain Che'Malle were the first species on Malazworld, analogous to dinosaurs here on Earth. Big, powerful, ultimately destroyed as newer creatures like mammals survived better...or were wiped out as the Tiste killed some Matrons.

As for the idea that the KCCM/KCNR are some sort of alien invaders, I can't recall reading that in the books. I also don't remember them keeping the Elder Gods away, way back when. Anyone want to help me recall these with some quotes?

I also thought that the Shake were part Tiste Andii...I distinctly recall Nomander Golit pondering this while on Second Maiden's Fort in Reaper's Gale. He says something about them not even recognizing their ancestry because it was so diluted. But I do agree that when reading about the Shake babies I immediately thought of the K'Chain Che'Malle. Maybe they're a twisted mix of Tiste and K'Chain?

Actually it's Throatslitter who recognizes the shake titles as Andii language in RG first, plus Nimander does recognize them as kin later on.

[D'rek]

biblioholic;355086 said:

I always was under the impression that the K'Chain Che'Malle were the first species on Malazworld, analogous to dinosaurs here on Earth. Big, powerful, ultimately destroyed as newer creatures like mammals survived better...or were wiped out as the Tiste killed some Matrons.

Me too. However they ended up in Malazi-world, their demise was a combination of civil war with the recreated-Nah'ruk, annihilation by the Tiste invasions and potentially being wiped out by enclaves of Jaghut, Imass (both known to have been present by then) or even Toblakai or FA (also could have been in the world by then)

biblioholic;355086 said:

As for the idea that the KCCM/KCNR are some sort of alien invaders, I can't recall reading that in the books. I also don't remember them keeping the Elder Gods away, way back when. Anyone want to help me recall these with some quotes?

I think the idea of the KCCM being space invaders is ludicrous, but it's an old theory and there's no shortage of folk who believe it, just like the theory that they are offpsring from dragons. There's plenty of hints that could be pointing in that direction, but nothing conclusive on any side of the arguments. Heck, there's even theories that they live on the moon or something. A lot of it comes from slight remarks such as "the KCCM were invaders" which people can extrapolate to seemingly mean that they were from another planet, when it could also mean they were from another warren-realm, another continent, another city, etc.

The KCCM Matrons' ability to keep the EGs from coming to the Malazi-world is mentioned by Kallor when he briefly describes KCCM history in MoI (when they come upon some dead K'ell Hunters). If necessary, I'll quote it in a couple days when I get my laptop back.

biblioholic;355086 said:

I also thought that the Shake were part Tiste Andii...I distinctly recall Nomander Golit pondering this while on Second Maiden's Fort in Reaper's Gale. He says something about them not even recognizing their ancestry because it was so diluted. But I do agree that when reading about the Shake babies I immediately thought of the K'Chain Che'Malle. Maybe they're a twisted mix of Tiste and K'Chain?

The Shake are descended from a Tiste Andii culture who's task it was to defend the shoreline of Lether, as that is where unclaimed K'Chain younglings appear. That culture seems to have been left alive after Silchas' armies died against the Edur, but breeding with the humans for so long has made them closer to humans then Andii. The K'Chain babies in the water seem to influence some of them, resulting in the warlocks and witches with clawed feet or scales or what-have-you.

[Khellendros]

I see that it's time, once again, to resurrect my old theory on the K'Chain Che Malle, which has been thus far tragically ignored on these boards.

Namely, that the catfish first seen in House of Chains, in the Nascent, are a younger stage of K'Chain Che Malle. Let's put it together, shall we?

We know that K'Chain are birthed, or spawned, in the oceans. Add to that the fact that we see the 'catfish' swim onto shore and split open in order for lizard-like beings to emerge, and I have to put the two together and say - K'Chain!

So, to recap, the stages being: eggspawn thingy -> catfish -> young land K'Chain -> fully grown K'Chain, developing into either normal K'Chain or K'ell Hunter.

The way this ties into this particular thread is the 'alien' business. If this is correct, then the catfish-K'Chain came into the Nascent once it was flooded by the Tiste Edur, meaning they originate from the realm where Lilac - Trull Sengar's demon companion in Midnight Tides - comes from, and who talks about hunting these catfish, before the river is diverted, via warren portal thing, into the Nascent in order to flood it so that the Edur can sail across it.

[chill]

As for the dragon descendants thing... Wither was a creature described as lesser dragon kin (can't remember the name, appropriate MT quotes anyone). Maybe KCCM and KCNR were also lesser dragon kin that managed to create a civilization rather than just following dragons around.

[Khellendros]

Wither was a Tiste Andii ghost, no? You mean the Wyvern, I assume?

[chill]

Khellendros;355187 said:

Wither was a Tiste Andii ghost, no? You mean the Wyvern, I assume?

Errm, wait a sec I need to dig through my memory a little.

Udinaas had a dream, I think, where he saw plenty of dragons, followed by plenty of Wyverns (I think that's the word I've been looking for) that were going to war.
And I think there was some connection between a wyvern that attacked Feather witch, Wither and that dream about dragons.
Or my memory is completely fucked.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Locqui Wyval.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

Here's my summary of Udinaas, for what it's worth.

http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...4338#post284338

More rebuttal re: the "space invaders" comment later. In brief, however, I believe that the "space invaders" comment trivializes the opinion I offered up re: types of "space" and perhaps more siginificantly, the remainder of that post which was an attempt to enrich at least my own reading of the Malazan Book of The Fallen series. I remain intrigued by the CG's origins. Exactly where did he come from? Was it "outer space" or from some other type of space? And where did Heboric's travels take him? That certainly seemed like "outer space" to me - but I don't know if I should read that journey literally or as metaphor.

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive to the criticism and will gladly entertain any contrary opinion well supported by what one poster referred to as "canon" - evidence to the contrary. Is there anything in any of these books which categorically defines the origins and nature of the KCCM? The notion of "contaminent" is not exactly outrageous when we consider the origin of Crone and her ilk - maggot equivalents from the rotting corpse of the Crippled God. Outer space doesn't really seem so absurd under such literary conditions.

I don't really have to convince anyone else of my theories and, in fact, make no attempt to even convince myself. I do find the exercise entertaining and it allows me to add depth to books which could be dismissed as "just fantasy" novels. I choose to believe otherwise though and I'm convinced that SE really "knows his stuff"...and that his academic credentials and overall "smarts" are reflected in his writing. I take great delight in reading these stories as deeply as I can. And the theories posted are merely enthusiasms. I'm certainly ready to hear from others who want to post similar enthusiasms which may be goofy but nevertheless entertaining - particularly if well thought out.

After reading my ramblings about the conflict between technology and magic my wife observed that the ultimate technological challenge to Malazan world magic could possibly be Icarium's successful conjoining of all his "machines" which he appears to have left littered all over the various continents. Life Stealer indeed.

OHA

[Lisheo]

The interesting thing is, only Iccy and the KCCM/KCNR seem to have technology. Where did Iccy learn his skills? I doubt the KCCM would be especially friendly to their once-underlings, the Jaghut, and even less so to their fallen kin.
And yeah, I love these threads(crazy theories rawk).
Bear in mind Telorast and Curddle list about half a dozen other species that live in SD with the dragons, so the Wyval are possibly nothing special.

[Grief]

Its mentioned that the Jaghut were skilled in machines, cant remember where.

[Lisheo]

Ah, that would explain it lol. Seems to me that the races of Wu are losing their advancement as they progress... KCNR>KCCM>Jaghut>Imass/human (bear in mind humans got their munitions from Moranth, who got em from the Edur).

[Grief]

I blame the Imass, as all the races before had technology and none after did, as they were not interested in learning about technology. As someone says(think its Kilava in MoI) the Imass are only good at killing.

[HoosierDaddy]

One of the ongoing themes in tMBotF is that magic has replaced technology, and as long as it is around there is no real need to invest in technological advancement.

[Old Hunch Arbat]

HoosierDaddy;355560 said:

One of the ongoing themes in tMBotF is that magic has replaced technology, and as long as it is around there is no real need to invest in technological advancement.

Except when those damn technological toys called Cussers are tossed at you by someone with neither magic skills, nor an inherent right to dictate to you.

"God made men and women - Colt made them equal"

And re: the Imass - Could the ritual have served as the ultimate divorce form, among other things, technology?

OHA

[Illuyankas]

Old Hunch Arbat;355604 said:

And re: the Imass - Could the ritual have served as the ultimate divorce form

Awesome typo.

"Yes, I'm filing for a divorce. Why? You don't have sex with me anymore."
"You're an undead zombie!"
"And you're impotent!"
"AAAAAAAAAH"

[Aptorian]

I've been looking through the posts, skimming some because of the length, but I thought I'd add my own two cents.

The Malazan universe is a strange place. There are planets, there are stars and there are other dimensions that are completely foreign to the world of Burn. The Azath would seem to exist in all these millions of places and... I'm willing to believe... so do the dragons.

So, could the dragons had given birth to countless civilizations across the universe? It's possible. Could the KCCM have evolved on a foreign world, plane, moon... turtle? and come to Wu later? I certainly think so. Personally I think they were hanging out, doing lizard stuff, on the moon untill the jadepeople crashed the party, but I don't necessarily think that's where they come from.

The weird question would be what is up with the dinosaurs that Urko is digging up. It would be so awesome if the Matrons were in fact T-rex's and the KCCM are raptors

As for the whole magic and technology question. I giggle when ever I think of a KCCM flying a big rock. I get the calvin and hobbs picture of the raptor flying an F-14 hunting triceratops in my head.

The quote about any technology sufficiently advanced may seem like magic should have it's counter part. Any world with sufficiently advanced magic may develop a system so complex it seems like a science.

[D'rek]

D said:

of course if a techology-centred race/civilization emerged and was confronted with magic they'd think it was just super-advanced technology...

Aptorian;356887 said:

The quote about any technology sufficiently advanced may seem like magic should have it's counter part. Any world with sufficiently advanced magic may develop a system so complex it seems like a science.

Great minds think alike!

Khellendros;355177 said:

I see that it's time, once again, to resurrect my old theory on the K'Chain Che Malle, which has been thus far tragically ignored on these boards.

Namely, that the catfish first seen in House of Chains, in the Nascent, are a younger stage of K'Chain Che Malle. Let's put it together, shall we?

We know that K'Chain are birthed, or spawned, in the oceans. Add to that the fact that we see the 'catfish' swim onto shore and split open in order for lizard-like beings to emerge, and I have to put the two together and say - K'Chain!

So, to recap, the stages being: eggspawn thingy -> catfish -> young land K'Chain -> fully grown K'Chain, developing into either normal K'Chain or K'ell Hunter.

The way this ties into this particular thread is the 'alien' business. If this is correct, then the catfish-K'Chain came into the Nascent once it was flooded by the Tiste Edur, meaning they originate from the realm where Lilac - Trull Sengar's demon companion in Midnight Tides - comes from, and who talks about hunting these catfish, before the river is diverted, via warren portal thing, into the Nascent in order to flood it so that the Edur can sail across it.

I do believe it is said at some point that the Kennyll'rah/Kenryll'ah (or however you spell them) are said to be of Aral Gamelon.

The Katfish-Chain theory is interesting, but I wonder how it ties into the Matrons "claiming" their spawnlings, as it is said it is only the K'chain babies who were 'unclaimed by a Matron' who were breeching the shore...

[Pig Iron]

Last couple of posts here are brilliant and gave me new insights on the series, thanks.