[Optimus Prime]

Trying to create non-spoiler titles

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So....Spite says that Rake's death is the beginning of "The End". I've been thinking about this and wondering....Rake must have realized that with his "death" or whatever...he wouldn't be around to fight the CG. If that was ever an option at all.
I'm wondering....is his death the beginning of the end of the Gods?

[Kurt Montandon]

Optimus Prime;353859 said:

So....Spite says that Rake's death is the beginning of "The End". I've been thinking about this and wondering....Rake must have realized that with his "death" or whatever...he wouldn't be around to fight the CG. If that was ever an option at all.
I'm wondering....is his death the beginning of the end of the Gods?

I suspect that both his death and Hood's ... removal ... plays along with the plan that the anti-CG faction has. After all, Draconus is now back, Mother Dark is active again, and Shadowthrone and Cotillion helped manipulate Rake's death at Dassem's hands. It's almost certainly all part of the plan.

[Tarr]

I thought she was heralding the beginning of the final convergance which could be right or wrong but I don't think she meant the end of the gods, as if so she would have probably shown more feeling, allaborated more or made some sort of gesture to signal defiance or surrender rather than just announce the end of the gods.

[Optimus Prime]

It also seems that Rake realizes that the struggle can be won without him.

[Sinisdar Toste]

which is probably true, theres mael and 70.000 barghast as well as the motherfucking bonehunters! fuck yeah! i cant believe im already aching for the next book.

[buddhacat]

The Crippled God's presence on the world is only 120,000 years old. Before that there were hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years of life and action on this world and in other realms. After tCG there will still be millions of years to go.

In other words, framing all struggles with the Crippled God on one side is wrong. He is but one player. There are dozens others - from the old gods to the younger gods, elemental forces, forces of balance and chaos, Dragons, various races of peoples, various kinds of realms and so on - all apart from the Crippled God.

That the series ends with tCG implies that one thread in the vast tapestry will be resolved; there are many many other threads, some of which will, I'm guessing, be resolved, but many will not.

So it goes. Limiting the action to just the Crippled God-related threads would be a disservice to the world SE has built.

[Optimus Prime]

Right...but we are just talking about THIS conflict...which centers...as far as we know...around the CG.

[Tapper]

I think the sole reason is Rake's own priorities. By waiting as long as he did before entering Dragnipur himself, he bought himself every second of time on Wu. This was probably (one of) the last moment(s) Rake had to bring back Mother Dark, so he may have had to choose between bringing her back, or sacrificing her and fighting the Crippled God.

Alternatively, he could have gone around, killed a couple of dragons and a god or two to push back the chaotic storm chasing the cart inside Dragnipur for a while, and stay around to fight the CG - but if he died in that struggle, he would have lost the opportunity to bring back MD.

Right now, everything happened on his own terms, and he received aid from rather unlikely allies as well - no doubt because there was something for them in the bargain, too.

[Optimus Prime]

So...I guess the question is now...who/what are the CG's proxies?

The Edur are toast.
Pannion-toast
Seven Cities seems to be his entirely though.

[HoosierDaddy]

Optimus Prime;354020 said:

So...I guess the question is now...who/what are the CG's proxies?

The Edur are toast.
Pannion-toast
Seven Cities seems to be his entirely though.

I'd disagree with 7 Cities. I think they are nobody's place at this point.

Who/what does the CG have as his proxies?

Er, some people as per RotCG.
Basic Chaos.
Kallor, Hound-Dog, other members of HHC.
Er, other people as of RotCG.
A divided pantheon and weakened one at that.
Sundered KE which he is taking advantage of.
The reemergence of KCCM.
The reemergence of a Tyrant.
The fact that nobody (I disagree) knows how to kill him yet.

[Optimus Prime]

Haven't read RotCG.

Kallor is debatable. Hate to compare him to a GRRM character, but he seems very Jaime Lannister'ish at the moment...

aSoIaF Spoiler....

Spoiler

Starts off being a totally hateable character and then turns into a bad ass guy you can root for. He seems headed this way.....

[HoosierDaddy]

Optimus Prime;354034 said:

Haven't read RotCG.

Kallor is debatable. Hate to compare him to a GRRM character, but he seems very Jaime Lannister'ish at the moment...

aSoIaF Spoiler....

Spoiler

Starts off being a totally hateable character and then turns into a bad ass guy you can root for. He seems headed this way.....

I can only answer as a spoiler:

Spoiler

But do we have any other examples of a black character going grey then possibly semi-white as Jaime does, in Wu? Martin has given us example after example of redeeming shit characters. I can't think of any Erikson examples like this right now, but that may be due to limited brain functionality

[Optimus Prime]

I dunno.

Kallor doesn't serve anyone...that much is certain...he only uses people...and yes...if he does anything for the CG it will be to get something.

Spinnock seems to think there is at least a chance Kallor may redeem himself....somewhat.

[HoosierDaddy]

Optimus Prime;354054 said:

I dunno.

Kallor doesn't serve anyone...that much is certain...he only uses people...and yes...if he does anything for the CG it will be to get something.

Spinnock seems to think there is at least a chance Kallor may redeem himself....somewhat.

I will agree that any thought that Kallor would blindly do the CG's bidding is extinguished by TTH. His character has become very much more developed.

I find a strange fascination and link between Daseem's begging Rake to let him past without fighting and Kallor's begging of Spinnock to not delay him. It speaks to the power of obsession.

[Dance]

HoosierDaddy;354052 said:

I can only answer as a spoiler:

Spoiler

But do we have any other examples of a black character going grey then possibly semi-white as Jaime does, in Wu? Martin has given us example after example of redeeming shit characters. I can't think of any Erikson examples like this right now, but that may be due to limited brain functionality

Karsa?

[Tiger_sword]

Not to mention that Kallor seams to think the CG's days are numbered either he has vastly underrated him or his vast experience has shown him that the CG probably wont last long. I still reckon that the CG has something big planned something HUGE!

[drinksinbars]

it seems to be a plan designed to bring the elder powers back into play. starting with krul and now awakening mael, mother dark, father light, edgewalker and kilmandros. we have draconus and nightchilla ctive two as well as sister spite and lady envy.

the crippled god is in soem serious trouble.

[Illuyankas]

drinksinbars;354325 said:

it seems to be a plan designed to bring the elder powers back into play. starting with krul and now awakening mael, mother dark, father light, edgewalker and kilmandros. we have draconus and nightchilla ctive two as well as sister spite and lady envy.

Is this necessarily a good thing?

[Morgoth]

Optimus Prime;354000 said:

Right...but we are just talking about THIS conflict...which centers...as far as we know...around the CG.

Actually, it seems to me as if the CG is being shown as being a less important player than we thought

[Abyss]

Optimus Prime;353859 said:

.......Rake must have realized that with his "death" or whatever...he wouldn't be around to fight the CG. ...?

I agree, but as i see it, the problem of Dragnipur failing and the Gate falling to Chaos was always a bigger problem than the CG's fun and games - who cares what the CG does if the chaos storm inevitably ate the gate, Mommy D, and all existance. Rake knew others were setting themselves into the CG's path, and by his sacrifice he was ensuring the Andii and Mommy D would be around to do that. he essentially saved the universe to someone else could save the world.


As for the CG's we know his Cult is in play, plus whatever other empires he has going - it's been hinted the Edur/Leth and the Pannion Domin were only two of many. The House of Chains is still working.

So all of which is to say, Rake (and apparently Hood, ST and Cotillion) knew there was a bigger problem that had to be dealt with.


And i agree the book hinted at Kallor's possible redemption but that's another topic.

- Abyss, notes whatever we can say about Rake, he went out with a bang... well, technically a big frikkin sword to the head and THEN a bang...