[Agraba]

I'm surprised nobody has really discussed this yet (or at least I haven't found a discussion). The revelation of what was actually chasing the wagon was, I think, the weirdest thing we've seen in the series thus far. There are actual people in that chaotic tumult of, uh... chaos.

Except they can't be real people. Who would have the patience to continue marching for as long as they have? (Although one can make the argument that they're souls that are trapped in Dragnipur and thus, have nothing better to do.)

Draconus and Pearl speculated that they're the evil version of everyone who exists... except I find that highly unlikely, especially considering that said discussion was very shortly after Erikson's whole speech on how "evil" is not an entity, but just a word of convention made by people who were trying to assert meaning to certain acts people would succumb to.

What are they? Also, where will they go now that Dragnipur is broken?

[Aptorian]

Where will they go? Everywhere else I presume. Chaos always wars against all order and all creation.

What is chaos? Besides an element I have no idea and we don't really have any way to know. Not yet anyway.

EDIT: I'm not even sure chaos is an element. More like some kind of ....constant opposite creation.

[caladanbrood]

You get souls everywhere. Those who slip between warrens, those who end up in the dragon's blood etc. There's no shortage of possible sources

[Narg]

There are "people" in chaos, and it is apparently hard to imagine. I had a hard time taking that in as well, at least at first.

But then I got to thinking. You see, there are people born in darkness as well, and in light. There are also hounds born from several elements. What differs them from beings born of chaos?

One of the main question I have is if they are longlived beings that have existed for a long time, or just a manifestation that was created for the purpose of Dragnipur.

The second is the one that has already been hinted at. Precisely what are they? Parts of souls or something native to chaos?

My guess is that they are a manifestation. It is not based on much else than that the eleint and other flying creatures were fighting clouds. That is hardly a convincing argument, but it leads me to believe that the battle was mostly against a metaphor, and that the entire enemy army was such. Obviously, that is not a very strong theory, but I dont know how much further we can get with the information we have. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Morgoth]

Narg;352473 said:

My guess is that they are a manifestation. It is not based on much else than that the eleint and other flying creatures were fighting clouds. That is hardly a convincing argument, but it leads me to believe that the battle was mostly against a metaphor, and that the entire enemy army was such. Obviously, that is not a very strong theory, but I dont know how much further we can get with the information we have. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Well said. This pretty much sums up how I feel about it too. I very much doubt the army of chaos (oooh, my warhammer hairs are tickeling) was a gathering of... creatures.

[Urb]

When Icarium was following the Tiste Edur warlocks on their way to win back the thrones, they travelled through a "warren" of chaos. Quick Ben and Hairlock also did travel a bit in a "warren" of chaos. I don't find it that hard to believe there might be some people in there as well.

[Morgoth]

Urb;352839 said:

When Icarium was following the Tiste Edur warlocks on their way to win back the thrones, they travelled through a "warren" of chaos. Quick Ben and Hairlock also did travel a bit in a "warren" of chaos. I don't find it that hard to believe there might be some people in there as well.

I do. A whole population actively living in chaos would to my mind go completly against the very essence of chaos as a concept. People represent a kind of order which should be impossible there

[Sinisdar Toste]

when paran goes into dragnipur and talks to draconus, (first or second time i donno) they discuss how there are different ways that chaos and order can manifest themselves, draconus used to think darkness was the only way order could be manifest, but he was wrong. he admits this himself. order manifested as the deck, the tiles, the azath etc, there's no reason chaos couldn't manifest as a beastly horde, at least none we know of. it does however make you wonder if there is a father chaos or something

[Urb]

Morgoth;352867 said:

I do. A whole population actively living in chaos would to my mind go completly against the very essence of chaos as a concept. People represent a kind of order which should be impossible there

Allow me to rephrase myself: by 'some people', I don't mean 'people living out their lives in the "warren" of chaos', but 'an army conjured by chaos'.

[Raraku]

All warrens are somewhat sentient cause of what we ve seen Mokra and some others do. Hence Chaos shouldnt be too different.
I think that Chaos took the shape of what it thought was native to destruction. Armies always cause destrucyion so thats the form Chaos took.
Also maybe it was took the shape of soldiers cause it saw Hoods dead as an army (which it was) and thought it was the best way to fight them.
On a slightly different note, Rake while standing on top of the wagon inside Dragnipur says he sees the Chaos and feels a similar chaos inside him cause of Tiam s blood inside him. I think in MOI it was said that SD was the warren closest to chaos so SD and the Eleint maybe the first manifestation of Chaos.

[Tapper]

Isn't chaos (if and when translated as randomness) a rather significant part of the order we see in for example the Deck of Dragons? The cards are fixed, although the beings on them not so much - but the order of the cards is determined by chaos. Maybe the same was true for the Holds: traversing along random paths.

I'd say that to a degree, chaos is 'just' another part of the world and the world and magic possibly cannot exist without chaos, hence the connection with SD (wasn't that one of the chambers of K'ruls heart?) and it being there so early. Maybe SD even is a derivative of chaos - the first 'chaos on which some kind of order was stamped'?
I guess chaos is spiraling out of control due to the messing with chaos by the Matrons, the nature of mortals, the migration of the Tiste's, the return of the Crippled God and the general fickleness of other stuff, until it becomes an all-devouring force rather than 'the random factor'.
It could also chase the Gate of Darkness because all 'chaos' in its movement was taken away by the creation of Dragnipur - now that Mother Dark has returned, it might well be that Chaos won't chase her.

However, from the above rambling I cannot put something together on the shape it takes in Dragnipur...

[caladanbrood]

I think looking at chaos as just another warren would be a big mistake. The warrens appear to be fashioned out of it, but the process of that definitely changes things. You might be able to inhabit a warren, but it's fair to say that for your health, any visit to Chaos would be advised to be temporary. I agree that the army of chaos was almost certainly just a manifestation - even though I've just said they're not the same, I'll liken it to the Hounds, which are manifestations of an element's power. In that sense, Chaos is more like an element than a warren.