[Cause]

I hate this character. SE often tells us about characters virtues through the thoughts of other characters who know them and does not show us them directly. An example is dassem ultor, we used to call him the coolest character who never was. We relied on tidbits like brood telling kallor not to boast of skill untill hed faced the likes of dasse, or hearing that he was so good he worked for hood. However when it came time for dassem to fight be it edur on drift avali or rake in darujhistan we still get the sense that the man knows what he is about.

Not with Nimander. Were bombarded from every direction that he is a great leader, he has firm resolve. What we are shown does not mesh with this. As a leader hes beset by doubt and insecurity and nothing he ever does suggests brilliance. I felt like what the characters in the book saw and what we the reade were shown did not correlate

[Obdigore]

Because the characters in the book could not get inside his head.

Reading Nimander's thoughts was like how I think reading Rake's would be, at least after the dying god and forward. Has doubts about what he is doing, and what he askes his people to do, but dosen't show it to them and so is, and seems to those that cannot read his mind, to be a strong leader.

[Cause]

I may be wrong I cant actually remeber but we have had POV from rakes mind before?

But even with your objection, even if we did not know Nimanders thoughts, none of his actions are shown to be exceptional. His leadership skills seem the match to any sergeant. Theirs a point in the story were all his siblings are cross with him about devrisa death and he manages to keep them all in line. But how he does left me thinking railroading of the plot. His control was not written it was just their

[Aptorian]

Nimander actually reminds me of Whiskeyjack. Both lead by example, by the very strength of their character, yet are tortured souls. Doubting their own actions and harbor no illusions of grandeur.

I still dislike the Nimander character for the same reasons I disliked the Mhybe or Felisin, because Erikson forced you to listen to Nimander going on and on in his head about all his insecurities and selfdoubt. You can only take so much emotional crying before you want to slap the man.

That said he atleast showed some skill as a leader and some fighting capability in this book. In RG I just wanted him to die...

[Agraba]

Nimander is plagued with uncertainty.

But is that a bad thing?

Recall a speech given by Scillara in BH. Certainty, while seen as a virtue in some regards, it is ultimately what fashions a tyrant. Because with certainty comes an immobile conviction of how an end should be, and that can cause a person to be too closed to the ambiguity and ever changing reality.

But more so, recall a speech given by Karos Invictad in RG. A despicable character, I know, but in this particular case I'd say he delivers true wisdom. He only sought after the smartest, most clever people to arrest for they were the most dangerous to him. And those people were those that did not hold to a static conviction of the world and how it should be. They were smart enough to be uncertain, skeptical of all things in appearance and know that things are always more complicated than they seem. The uncertain are always best prepared for those unseen complications.

So perhaps because of that, Nimander would prove a most competent ruler.

Also in RG, I couldn't stand the Nimander plot only because of the existence of Phaed. Her presence in his head wasn't such a bad thing in TtH IMO, since it wasn't nearly as excessive.

[Aptorian]

Oh I don't dislike Nimander because he's insecure. I dislike Nimander because I have to listen to Nimander being insecure in one POV after another.

[Obdigore]

I too agree that listening to Nimander babble on and on about how he isn't sure that he should do anything is annoying as hell, but that can make a good leader, if he also knows how to move when he does decide to do something.

I don't recall having an inside-the-head Rake POV, just 3rd person watching rake...

[Vengeance]

I think that the point at the end of the book were Nimander is looking out over the city and the Redeemer's camp. One of the other characters remarks that his father used to do the same thing but out over the ocean. This seemed to imply that Rake was beset with doubts like Nimander and that in time Nimander will have the ability to have a will and focus like his father. It was also implied that he can veer into a Dragon if he so chooses.

Didn't mind Nimander in TtH although he was really irritating in RG.

[Cougar]

I'm pretty sure we never have a Rake POV

[Illuyankas]

I think the closest we get is when Dragnipur is going smokechain crazy.

[Obdigore]

Vengeance;351292 said:

I think that the point at the end of the book were Nimander is looking out over the city and the Redeemer's camp. One of the other characters remarks that his father used to do the same thing but out over the ocean. This seemed to imply that Rake was beset with doubts like Nimander and that in time Nimander will have the ability to have a will and focus like his father. It was also implied that he can veer into a Dragon if he so chooses.

Didn't mind Nimander in TtH although he was really irritating in RG.

It is said he can waken the blood of Tiam in his veins if he really wants to find SIlanah, I think that is more flat-out-stating he is soletaken then just by implication.

But yes, I agree that this acorn has not fallen far from the tree.

[Sindriss]

I thought it was a bit annoying to have all these hints of oh-how powerful he is and kallor/chip underestimating him etc.
I really expected us to see what it was about to some extent, maybe see him veer into a dragon or something. Anything

[Cougar]

I'm not 100% sure he can veer, but you wouldn't rule it out I guess. Logically it seems that having drunk the blood of Tiam = Dragon , so having Dragons blood as part of your genetics would suggest you could veer. However it might just mean he can feel the presence of another dragon.

I know that having a draconean soletaken parent doesn't mean you can veer.

[Obdigore]

Sindriss;351309 said:

I thought it was a bit annoying to have all these hints of oh-how powerful he is and kallor/chip underestimating him etc.
I really expected us to see what it was about to some extent, maybe see him veer into a dragon or something. Anything

It seemed they were underestimating what he would do to protect his people, is the point I had gathered. Not that he has all that much power personally, just that he is willing to do anything (including getting stabbed in the face) if he deems it necissary.

[Vengeance]

Cougar;351313 said:

I'm not 100% sure he can veer, but you wouldn't rule it out I guess. Logically it seems that having drunk the blood of Tiam = Dragon , so having Dragons blood as part of your genetics would suggest you could veer. However it might just mean he can feel the presence of another dragon.

I know that having a draconean soletaken parent doesn't mean you can veer.

Well wasn't his mom Envy? Then he would have two Draonean soletaken parents...

But I will toss this in to. A conversation between Skintick and Nimander.
Pg. 920 - 921

Spoiler

'S'ilanah. Er, very close to Anomander Rake, I'm told.'
'I wonder where she went?'
'You could always awaken Tiam's blood within you, and find out, Nimander.'
'Ah, no thank you.'

[Illuyankas]

I think it's similar to what Andarist did with his draconean blood (seeing as he was said to have had it but then denied it when his wife Whatsherface, you know, Kadsplaallsllala's sister, died) but unintentionally.

[Morgoth]

Cougar;351294 said:

I'm pretty sure we never have a Rake POV

Actually.. I think there was about a paragraph of Rake's point of view. When the old andii whom I can't remember the name of, walked in or something. I'm pretty sure...

*turns on the Vaiski signal*

[Urb]

He did help that Azath building Elder.
But he didn't turn into a dragon and stomp on Clip

[Illuyankas]

Yet. Mwahaha.

[Cougar]

Morgoth;351544 said:

Actually.. I think there was about a paragraph of Rake's point of view. When the old andii whom I can't remember the name of, walked in or something. I'm pretty sure...

*turns on the Vaiski signal*

We discussed this on Saturday, I can't think of one...help.

Also I'm not denying for one minute Nimander has plenty of Dragon blood, but is his mum definitely Envy? I'm not anywhere where I can look this up right now, but where in the books does it say this. It says she is on the Draconean Family tree but that isn't 100% correct. Moreover, we don't know exactly how Dragon genetics work. The evidence available points to the fact that he could veer if he wanted to but I wouldn't take it as read.