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Crazy Theories after TtH.

#41 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 07:54 PM

Agraba;351228 said:

I have two crazy theories immediately after finishing the book:

This one is put together by both a conversation between Hedge and Emroth(?) in RG, and one between Kallor and Tulas Shorn:

I think the Jaghut are the sole reason that there is an afterlife. As in, before them, death was just an ordinary plain death - ceasing to exist. Then they fashioned a ritual; similar to the Imass ritual that would affect all T'lan Imass, but this one would affect all life in the future; and it was a ritual so major that it took legions of Jaghut as well as dragons to create. And the nature of the ritual is to allow your personality and essence that defines your self to exist after death, free of the body's constraints. So the afterlife is really nothing but a sorcerous spell fashioned by the Jaghut.

My other theory is that the tiny speck that Torvald Nom spots beyond the moon (he mused that it could be a world bigger than their own); the one described by Kruppe as the green, blue and ochre world beyond is Earth, millions of years in the past (our past, their present). Recall that the fragments of the moon took up a third of the sky; even if our moon shattered it wouldn't take up nearly that much! So the fragments that were sailing away towards that distant world would go into orbit and form our very own moon. In the past we were two bodies in binary orbit that were orbiting the sun. But a major catastrophic event will destroy Wu completely and we will be left alone.


I too thought of something kinda like this...

HoosierDaddy;349940 said:

Just a theory here, but why are the Jaghut and F.A. immortal? Could it be because they weren't always, but they fought death (remember there were F.A. in that scene) and somehow earned immortality from it?

Millions of Jaghut and some F.A. band together to defeat an implacable force, do so, and are broken in return. We wonder why they have so little care for each other, maybe in winning their war, they actually lost. If time has no meaning, what is the point of doing anything now You have forever to do what you wish, and I imagine it doesn't take too long for people to start to annoy you. Thus a race that likes solitude.

As for the F.A.: They worship balance. Maybe defeating death and becoming immortal taught them a lesson, that there should be two sides to every coin and immortality is a one-sided one.


No one has talked about K'rul's being the prize in the game. We all assumed that the overall goal was to defeat the Crippled God (for good or just another chaining), but evidently the game is something else entirely. Do both forces seek to take control of K'rul and thus control of all the warrens? This would explain why the Deck of Dragons and the gods representing the Houses would be very wary of the Elder Gods getting in on their game.

This is proof of just how many games are going on: Both Elder and Younger want the Crippled God gone, Crippled God wants to stick around and F with the game best way to do so is to take control of K'rul and his control of the warrens while screwing around with Emurlahn and evidently in TtH Galain as well, the Elder might want in on the new Houses and could do so by back-stabbing the Young Gods after defeating the Crippled God (the Holds are back in play thanks to the Errant), the Younger Gods are trying to defeat the Crippled God and keep the Elder Gods from having influence and perhaps usurping the Houses.

Thus you have a shifting playing field and shifting allies, which we've seen throughout the series but had no understanding as to just why there is such suspicion amongst the parties.

:D
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#42 User is offline   powermad 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 08:05 PM

ive just finished the book today, i believe that rake will be back quite possibly in the last book the crippled god, as all the other ascendents opposing the crippled god will need his power especially if he finds mother dark and asks for her forgivenes for turning his back on her. then there will be a big reunion and and mother dark will be able to fight again.
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#43 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 08:07 PM

His soul was torn apart and pulled into darkness. It's not exactly like he's sitting on a beach in Kurald Galain vaiting for a summons.

If Rake returns I'm going to be pissed off.
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#44 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 03:31 AM

Agraba;351228 said:

My other theory is that the tiny speck that Torvald Nom spots beyond the moon (he mused that it could be a world bigger than their own); the one described by Kruppe as the green, blue and ochre world beyond is Earth, millions of years in the past (our past, their present). Recall that the fragments of the moon took up a third of the sky; even if our moon shattered it wouldn't take up nearly that much! So the fragments that were sailing away towards that distant world would go into orbit and form our very own moon. In the past we were two bodies in binary orbit that were orbiting the sun. But a major catastrophic event will destroy Wu completely and we will be left alone.


so your saying we should be able to access warrens?

@hoosierdaddy, so should we now be wondering if ST and Cot are gonna make a play for the warrens, in the pursuit of knowledge? they don't know about it being k'ruls blood... or did the three dragons tell cot? Quotes!
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#45 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 06:10 AM

I'm pretty sure the two have figured out the link between K'rull and the warrens. I would be disappointed if they hadn't.
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#46 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 01:57 AM

Aptorian;352195 said:

I'm pretty sure the two have figured out the link between K'rull and the warrens. I would be disappointed if they hadn't.


Quote

Yes, I do indeed understand, Ampelas. And I should now presume that for each of the warrens, Elder and new, there is a corresponding dragon? You are the flavours of K'rul's blood? The Bonehunters, American Ed. pg 65-66.



I would state it is their plan to prevent both the usurpation of the warrens by the Crippled God's and the Elder God's. Immediately following this discussion is the discussion of "elder gods" and "elder forces" that has been the source of many a questions in RG and TBH, so they obviously know that the Crippled God is going after K'rul. He brings up the other Eleint Soletaken's, some we would consider elder gods: Draconus, Olar Ethil. Which shows us he is inquisitive about their natures as well, although this seems a query divised to get to the question about the Crippled God. The fact that the elder warrens are contained in this I didn't remember, but it explains why the Elders got in the game.

After revealing that the dragons sought to heal Emurlahn, that they were the flavor's of K'rul's blood, that the Crippled God is elder comes the important:

Quote

"A sundered realm is the weakest realm of all! Why do you think the Crippled God is working through it?"
The Bonehunters, American Ed. pg 67.

So, a theory, the Crippled God is somehow working with Emurlahn (perhaps he has control of pocket Emurlahn warrens ((like he sought with Dryjnha))) to attempt to gain control of K'rul and thus the rest of the warrens, younger and elder. Cotillion and Shadowthrone are interested because control of K'rul would perhaps give them the power to destroy the Crippled God. K'rul hadn't been around until Gardens of the Moon, his presence has stirred up all of this action as all 3 parties can finally see an endgame in what had been a rather flat stalemate of repeated Chainings. His endgame is using K'rul to break his chains (don't know how though just like with Cot's and ST).

So a 3 party free-for-all with all of magic "K'rul" as it's prize!

How can K'rul be the "prize"? What power would allow a party to control him? Perhaps a party who can gain entrance into Starvald Demelain, the "chamber" or whatnot of the warrens. Who has access to that tower one time? I think we know two devilishly clever ascendant Gods who might know that answer :D
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#47 User is offline   Where is Dassem Ultor? 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:33 AM

The Crippled God was assuredly working through a fragment of Emurlahn, in that he used Rhulad, and Hannan Mosag before him. This we already knew. I think it's safe to say that his use of the Edur was coming to an end with, you know, Karsa killing Rhulad and "delivering" the sword to Withal at the end of RG.

We also know for a fact that the Crippled God has other "empires" on other continents that he is working through, though the specifics behind those vaguely alluded to forces will, presumably, only be revealed in Dust of Dreams. As I was remarking to a friend today, much in the way that we briefly saw something of the Genebackan campaign through Quick Ben when Kalam summoned him on Cartheron Crust's Ragstopper in Deadhouse Gates, the quick glimpse we see of Paran in TtH will be explained in Dust of Dreams. In other words, Dust of Dreams will be to Toll the Hounds what Memories of Ice was to Deadhouse Gates.

Granted, that's a lot to live up to. And though my faith took a beating in BH and RG, it has been completely restored as more of Erikson's sweeping plans are revealed.

And now for my crazy theory: the arrival of the Hounds of Light was a conscious play for power by Osserc. Think about it: Rake has constantly gotten the better of him in the past. As T'riss said in House of Chains, that particular group of ascendants was simply too powerful to be friends. And if we are counting Olar Ethil and Draconus as Elder Gods, Father Light must surely belong to that group as well (cough read the prologue to RotCG, cough). His daughters have just been dealt a stunning backhand by T'lan Imass and Quick Ben. And Dragnipur is up for the taking? Yeah, I'd say that the hounds' arrival was precipitated.
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#48 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:44 AM

Where is Dassem Ultor?;352971 said:

The Crippled God was assuredly working through a fragment of Emurlahn, in that he used Rhulad, and Hannan Mosag before him. This we already knew. I think it's safe to say that his use of the Edur was coming to an end with, you know, Karsa killing Rhulad and "delivering" the sword to Withal at the end of RG.


Emurlahn remains the weak link by its fracturing. There are assuredly other fragments out there. His usage goes beyond the Edur, a la his attempt at the Whirlwind Goddess.

Where is Dassem Ultor?;352971 said:

We also know for a fact that the Crippled God has other "empires" on other continents that he is working through, though the specifics behind those vaguely alluded to forces will, presumably, only be revealed in Dust of Dreams. As I was remarking to a friend today, much in the way that we briefly saw something of the Genebackan campaign through Quick Ben when Kalam summoned him on Cartheron Crust's Ragstopper in Deadhouse Gates, the quick glimpse we see of Paran in TtH will be explained in Dust of Dreams. In other words, Dust of Dreams will be to Toll the Hounds what Memories of Ice was to Deadhouse Gates.


I initially thought that as well up to the point that there were two different wars going on. However, I believe DoD is going to advance the overall arc of the story more than TtH did.

Where is Dassem Ultor?;352971 said:

Granted, that's a lot to live up to. And though my faith took a beating in BH and RG, it has been completely restored as more of Erikson's sweeping plans are revealed.

And now for my crazy theory: the arrival of the Hounds of Light was a conscious play for power by Osserc. Think about it: Rake has constantly gotten the better of him in the past. As T'riss said in House of Chains, that particular group of ascendants was simply too powerful to be friends. And if we are counting Olar Ethil and Draconus as Elder Gods, Father Light must surely belong to that group as well (cough read the prologue to RotCG, cough). His daughters have just been dealt a stunning backhand by T'lan Imass and Quick Ben. And Dragnipur is up for the taking? Yeah, I'd say that the hounds' arrival was precipitated.


I initially thought of Osserc as well here as the member of Light making a play for Dragnipur. Whether this was a play for power or a way to safeguard Dragnipur's power is debateable I think.

While Rake and Osserc have battled, they were also companions and friends. Perhaps that meaningless bit of the 1000 Gods Baruk was reading was a foreshadowing of Osserc's putting himself back in the game and his eventual "victory" over Rake (because Rake's dead and he isn't). I also think it's still debatable as to whether or not Osserc is Father Light. Rake is Mother Dark's son, and yet he and Osserc are co-equals. Seems strange that F.L. would be a co-equal with Mother Dark's sons.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#49 User is offline   Optimus Prime 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:57 AM

There is that vague mentioning in HoC of the alien power plaguing the Tiste Liosan....like an alien god? Maybe it's him that went after the sword.

I also immediately thought of Osseric though....I wonder how he'll react to Rake's passing?
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#50 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 03:01 AM

ten bucks says he breaks down and cries like a baby. how could spiderman live without the green goblin? superman without lex luthor? xavier without magneto?!?! etc etc.
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#51 User is offline   Optimus Prime 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 03:16 AM

Twenty Bucks says he's going down, and not in a way nearly as noble as Rake.
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#52 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 03:49 AM

i'll see your twenty bucks and raise you another soletaken eleint offed by QB and co. for no reason at all.
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#53 User is offline   Optimus Prime 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 04:24 AM

Osric's mirroring of Rake seems....incorrect. Like we've been lead to believe they are very similar for so long that something is going to happen to show that maybe that was once true, but now it is NOT.
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#54 User is offline   Sindriss 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 10:25 AM

Illuyankas;341792 said:

Sounds like something a god of bards would say.

@Obdi: Maybe Nimander will be Captain, which implies a more command-based role, with Spinnock in Knight. Or (hopefully not) Clip.


Very good point, haven't thought of that Fisher might be some kind of God of bards and it really opens up for a lot of interesting ideas and discussions. Have rep sir!
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#55 User is offline   Hellian's Keg Lid 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 11:04 AM

I've never seen Osserc and Rake as mirrors of each other, outside of being prominent ascendants to their Tiste factions...

very loosely put

I mean Rake takes on a burden and actively swings his people around into cause after cause...

Osserc goes on vacation and gets in Rake's way whenever it looks like he might do some serious damage which the other gods do not want...

And not to jack the thread or anything, but did we ever meet Vorcan's daughter?
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#56 User is offline   drinksinbars 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 05:23 PM

just rereading tth and bellurdans spirit says that he hitched a ride on the machine with 'him' i assume he means icarum. so if he crashed into bastion, where the hell has he gone?
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#57 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 07:39 PM

Omgwtf!!!! Iccy Is The Tyrant!!! I Knew His Nice Guy Act Was A SCam
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#58 User is offline   Karsa Oblong 

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 06:58 PM

Nice idea about the Jaghut bringing about an escape from death for all creation, but isn't it made clear that when the Jaghut went to war with death they get whooped?

On a separate track - how about Rake taking over Hood's realm?
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#59 User is offline   Optimus Prime 

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 07:13 PM

Karsa Oblong;355136 said:

Nice idea about the Jaghut bringing about an escape from death for all creation, but isn't it made clear that when the Jaghut went to war with death they get whooped?

On a separate track - how about Rake taking over Hood's realm?


Nah. Rake is back with his mother. A lot was made of their reunion so I don't see Rake going "hmm....I've been carrying all this weight for millions of years...now I want to go hang out with the dead souls."

Though he'd probably only trust himself to guard over it.
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#60 User is offline   Tremolo 

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 07:13 PM

Crazy theory. The Elder gods want to usurp the Younger warrens because the creation of those has weakened the Elder Warrens. They will then amalgamate the Younger warrens into their parent Elder warrens to bring them back to strength. ST, Cot and younger gods and ascendants are obviously opposed to this since it would leave them and their followers/believers powerless. ;)
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