[Dragnipurake]

It may just be that Dassem wanted to go into dragnipur after Hood to deal with him there. it was mentioned a few times before the fight, 'what next for him after hood'. next, as in after his vengeance or as in after ending up in dragnipur? so, i suppose, he either wanted to be cut by dragnipur or kill rake with vengeance/grief and then take dragnipur.

edit: as pointed out in other threads, this theory has its flaws

[Bain]

phart;341483 said:

also i know think there is no doubt DU is the pre-eminemt blade master. Though one could argue i suppose that since Rake knew he had to lose he therefore did.

What do you guys think?

I disagree.

Rake not only had to lose, he had to manage to lose the fight by making the other guy kill him with his own sword.

I submit that this tends to indicate that Rake was the more skilled swordsman.

[Illuyankas]

As someone who does swordfighting and has been hit with my own sword while blocking a strike by someone with a very slim understanding of the concept 'sparring', or indeed 'pulling your blows', it's a lot easier than you think to purposely do that.

[blewin]

I don't quite understand the bit with Rake taking out the gate from the sword. If his presence alone (as said in the book) is enough to knock back chaos for that long, then what need is there for Hood and the dead armies? All Rake needed was to kill himself a little earlier. And it seems that his killing Hood has nothing to do with Hood slowing down chaos, at least, from my understanding that is that that isn't part of Rake's plan. Is that right? He just killed Hood because of ... uh, what exactly is that? gee, now I'm confused.

[Aptorian]

I agree completely. The only reason I can see for them waiting so long was for the thousands chained would be annihalated in the fight against chaos.

[polishgenius]

He killed Hood because that was Hood's request. I think. It allowed him to give up the mantle of God of Death but since he didn't want to be stuck he decided to help out Rake with freeing MD.
That's how I read it, anyway.

[Use Of Weapons]

I think there were probably a lot of interests in the world that would have liked to see the hordes within Dragnipur released, as they could profit from any chaos that resulted. So Rake couldn't simply allow the sword to be shattered without winnowing their ranks. But at the same time, he wanted to get into the sword in order to release the gate to KG. But because he had killed so many powerful entities, he had to wait until a) enough time had passed that only the newest entries and the most powerful old ones remained, enough time had passed after Hood's entry to allow him to marshal the forces within, turn the wagon, fight Chaos for long enough that most of those remaining after A were destroyed, and c) give time for his supporting players to be near so that they could take care of Dragnipur after he left.

[Rat Mentor]

There is some points to make on the subjects raised..

It would seem that the whole "Hood" dieing was planed by Hood, Shadowthrone, and the parties in the carriage at the begining of the book. I'm guessing that Rake, Baruk and Brood were present in the Carriage...

Dassem was manipulated by ST and Cot to be at Daru, to "kill" Rake.

Rake wanted to be relieved of the pressure of Dragonpuir, to stop "chaos" being unleased and more importantly he more than likely knew that Mother Dark was going to return to his Tiste Andii, so his loss wouldn't be so cataclysmic.

Also, has Hood actually died? At the end of the book Spite and Envy sense the return of Draconus, meaning that Dragonpuir has been shattered? And would that not mean that Hood would be able to return as well?

Again more questions than answers..

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I imagine them to be a bit like Tulas Shorn - dead, but not quite, if that makes sense. In any case, I think Hood's death was a good deal for both sides - Hood gets to give up his mantle and possibly dodge Dassem's rage, and Rake gets to buy enough time to both wait for Dassem, and for most of the big baddies in the sword to die with finality.

[Cougar]

I have to admit that as much as I loved the ending it made less than no sense why Rake had to do it that way, why he needed DU to do it, why Hood had to be there etc.

The only thing I could come up with is the more significant part in the timing was that Rake needed the Tiste Andii to be ready for him leaving and MD coming back, for Endest Silan to sort his arse out and Nimander and co to arive at Coral. Which could only happen when certain forces came into play (the Dying God, the Redeemer etc) Which meant that Hood had to hold back Chaos for longer than Rake had. If Rake wanted to die whilst someone could look after Dragnipur DU was the wrong choice since he turned into a big girl as soon as it had happened.

Probably wrong but it was all I could come up with.

[Tarr]

Why did it have to happen in darujhistan as well? could it not have happened in some city not filled to the brim with gods and ascendants?

[polishgenius]

I felt for DU the most out of all of them, since he got played for a complete patsy and used by everyone.
I've got to say, I wouldn't want to be one of the players should Karsa ever find out it the true scale of it. He seemed utterly outraged for his friend.

[Illuyankas]

Hey, Cotillion told him outright he'd have to fight Rake. Just because he didn't have a choice didn't mean he didn't know what was going on.

[polishgenius]

Did he? Can't remember that. Was it in the conversation after he nearly drowned or mentioned after the conversation in the city?

Either way, it was the fact that he was forced into killing a person he apparently had the hugest respect for, and it seems to have nearly shattered him.

I hope he meets up with Karsa again, anyway.

[Illuyankas]

During the talk with Shadowthrone after everything went down, Cotillion said he'd told him during the conversation that Karsa and Samar Dev couldn't hear.

And yeah, that'd be cool.

[Aptorian]

Didn't Cots say he¨d offered to explain it all but Dassem didn't care?

[Illuyankas]

Yeah, but he did have the chance to tell him about Rake. Not WHY, just that.

[Tremolo]

Obdigore;342404 said:

Yes, Dassem did not want to face Rake, but he was determined to get his vengeance (haha) on Hood. ST and Cot only helped him so that he could be there at the correct moment to kill Rake and put him in the sword. They knew he would not pick up Dragnipur... I think the challenge was to get the other people there to help protect the sword.

Their Timing was Impeccable, as they said it must be in the beginning of the book after they give the water to Dassem.

What/who made Crokus/Cutter give Traveller the sword called Vengeance? Like always things seem to have been arranged years in advance.

[Obdigore]

Tremolo;348027 said:

What/who made Crokus/Cutter give Traveller the sword called Vengeance? Like always things seem to have been arranged years in advance.

Why do you think Andarist was on the island? So that the sword would move on...

Isn't there a part when the mage-guy is remembering the meeting of the brothers where Andarist says he will not like doing what he has to? IE dying and getting rake killed?

Perhaps the tens of thousands of years of Andii history has been leading up to destroying the sword and getting Mommy D to turn back to her first children.

Think Silchas is in contact with Mommy D as well?

[Vengeance]

@ Tremolo

HOC