[SonOfDarkness]

Im not a very big fan of Itkovian. Yes I realise I would be flamed and negative reped for this perhaps but I have to speak my mind.

I did like him up until the Sacrifice. He was awesome. Then he stops the Imass from going into Coral and aiding the rest of the bridgeburners and coalition. I mean come, on the timing could have been better than that.

When I was reading that part I was like literally " DUDE!!! The bridgeburners Need those Imass!!!! Stop this fricking Sacrifice!! STOP! Fook!!!! Ahhh "

Really though, I was so frustrated with that, He could have done it after or before even. He wasnt thinking of the others. As much as the sacrifice he did seemed like a good thing ( and it was ) it also killed living people and it could have been prevented. We cannot deny it just because you love Itkovian so much. Those 10000 Imass were crucial for the breach of Coral and the BB and the coalition sacrifced there lives dearly.

Yes Itkovian is a saint and a good person but I personally cannot overlook the stupidity in the timing of that.

The greyswords seem to be not so smart with there decisions, I love the greyswords but they react on emotion and dont think of the bigger picture. For example:

- the mortal sword and his 400 Grey swords sacrificing them selves.

- Itkovian and his Ill timing for the sacrifice ( not a bad thing, just the timing )

- Toc making that bad decision to ally the aw then to be betrayed badly.

Anyway I had to get that out of my chest. I see alot of praise for Itkovian and people seem to forget what those 10000 Imass in Coral would have dont to prevent the casualties that occured.

** I put this in this forum because of the TOC reference to RG and MOI would have been a spoiler for the readers who are not that far.

Cheers.

[Aptorian]

It's been a while since I read MoI but as far as I remember, it wasn't like Itkovian came running up in front of a marching column of Imass trying to ruin the battle.

As soon as the T'lan Imass sensed Itkovian they all turned and looked to him for the salvation that their last hope, the newly born flesh and born bonecaster, wouldn't give them.

If it was anyones fault it was Silverfox.

As for the many... strange choices the Grey Swords make. For them this is a matter of chivalry and honor. It is more important that life or death.

To be honest when I read the part where the T'lan Imass are brought to their knee's and become unavailable for the fight I made an inward grown directed at Erikson. It's a typical storyteller trick to bind the hands of the protagonists so it might suit what ever outcome is needed. It's thankfully not something Erikson does that often and so blatantly.

[SonOfDarkness]

Still It could have been prevented.

Honor should have been granted to the BBers and the army too. There lives could have been saved by a fair margin if the Imass joined the battle.

He could have granted them salvation after the battle is what Im saying.

Im not hating on Itkovian. But theres a downpart to the timing of his Sacrifice. We cant forget about the fact that if the Imass were in the battle, perhaps some BBers could have been saved.

I cant blame this on Silverfox.

Itkovian made the decision right then and there to do the sacrifice right in the midst of the battle. He fully overlooked the fact that others would be dying as these Imass stay turned to him. He was a fighter, he should have been smarter than that.

[BeLeG]

the Imass have been undead for 300.000 years.What do they care about Bridgeburners?They fought for the malazans because Kellanved occupied the First Throne.
They went to the second Gathering expecting a flesh and blood Bonecaster who would free them from their eternal suffering.And when Itkovian,a man who is sworn to embrace the pain of others senses their grief, he cannot think of anything else:he must release them from their great pain.He knows that he found his last task and he must complete it.He should wait for the Tlan Imass to be destroyed by Kell Hunters?
The Imass should not be denied their salvation for the second time after 300.000 years.Thats my opinion anyway

[SonOfDarkness]

BeLeG;328875 said:

the Imass have been undead for 300.000 years.What do they care about Bridgeburners?They fought for the malazans because Kellanved occupied the First Throne.
They went to the second Gathering expecting a flesh and blood Bonecaster who would free them from their eternal suffering.And when Itkovian,a man who is sworn to embrace the pain of others senses their grief, he cannot think of anything else:he must release them from their great pain.He knows that he found his last task and he must complete it.He should wait for the Tlan Imass to be destroyed by Kell Hunters?
The Imass should not be denied their salvation for the second time after 300.000 years.Thats my opinion anyway

This has nothing to do with what the Imass cared about.

The Imass were going to go in and neutralize the K'Chain Che Malle Threat regardless of whether they cared for the Malazans or not. the KCCM were sworn enemies to the Imass.

And you assume alot by saying that the Imass would have been destroyed by the Kell hunters. I doubt that. There were surviving BBers after Coral. The Imass would have survived also.

Im saying the Imass were going into Neutralize the KCCM, and Itkovians timing could have been better. simple. Its not fair to assume such things and 10000 Imass getting destroyed by the Kell hunters.

[Aptorian]

Actually it's fair to assume that the T'lan Imass would had suffered great loses against the KCCM.

When the... K'ron? T'lan Imass saved Itkovian and his couting party, more than a few T'lan Imass were going down for each? KCCM they killed.

KCCM unlike a human being, has the strength and weapons to destroy a T'lan Imass in one swing. The odds are in the big lizards favor.

[caladanbrood]

SonOfDarkness;328878 said:

This has nothing to do with what the Imass cared about.

I think it has everything to do with what the Imass cared about. Itkovian was hard-wired to accept pain, grief and suffering. Once he found out the Imass' wish, and how desperate they were, he had no real choice in the matter. If you want to blame anyone, Fener should be in the line of fire.

[SonOfDarkness]

Suffering great losses and getting destroyed are two different things. I was refering to him saying that the Imass would be destroyed.

The Imass are not mortal. The mortal army survived Coral.

Thus the assumption with 10000 Imass ( undead ) going after the KCCM "specifically" would have definately not been destroyed.

The Imass would have definately helped to saved some lives by concentrating on the KCCM.

Destroyed = Destruction of something

Suffering great losses = Not losing all, like one arms host suffering great losses.

All im saying is One arms host would not have lost as much if the Imass joined in and Itkovian waited a bit.

[SonOfDarkness]

caladanbrood+;328892 said:

I think it has everything to do with what the Imass cared about. Itkovian was hard-wired to accept pain, grief and suffering. Once he found out the Imass' wish, and how desperate they were, he had no real choice in the matter. If you want to blame anyone, Fener should be in the line of fire.

If you read up I was refering to him saying " what do the Imass care about the bridgeburners "

I was stating regardless of what they think about the Malazans. They were in there to take care of the KCCM threat. There care for the Malazans dont matter is what I meant by " It doesnt matter what the Imass cared about ".

This was in no way reference to how the Imass were suffering for 300,000 years.

[caladanbrood]

You should word things more clearly then

The point I made stands, though.

[SonOfDarkness]

I did word it clearly.

I quoted him so people would know what I meant by that. Its clear I was replying to his first sentence.

I get the feeling this is a lone battle. No not a battle. But I mean im alone in my opinion.

Onearms host suffered great casualties in that battle. And to me as that was happening I was thinking " dont worry the Imass are yet to come ". Then I realised Itkovian wont let them go and this would mean greater losses for One arms host. To me that was more heartbreaking. To watch all of them die as Itkovian held the Imass back to grant them salvation.

No love for all the fallen ones from the host? The timing was poor for the sacrifice.

[Wampyry]

Itkovian's timing can be looked at in another way. If 10,000 T'lan sormed Coral they
probably would have made short work of the K'Chain Hunters. T'lan being T'lan they
would then kill everything in sight - including the Seer and the Matron. Burn would not
have been saved and the world would have died.

[Ninelives]

SonOfDarkness;328908 said:

I get the feeling this is a lone battle. No not a battle. But I mean im alone in my opinion.

Onearms host suffered great casualties in that battle. And to me as that was happening I was thinking " dont worry the Imass are yet to come ". Then I realised Itkovian wont let them go and this would mean greater losses for One arms host. To me that was more heartbreaking. To watch all of them die as Itkovian held the Imass back to grant them salvation.

No love for all the fallen ones from the host? The timing was poor for the sacrifice.

You're not alone. I'm fond of Itkovian, but I also feel that his timing in this could have been a lot better. Itkovian bringing salvation to the Imass had been a noble and inspiring deed, but I can't deny that it was at the cost of many other mortal lives, not just his own.

Not sure if I can blame Silverfox, either. She did want to save the Imass, but it looked like she was waiting for a more appropriate time to do it.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

To paraphrase:

GRAAAAH HATE HATE HATE HATE!!!


But like pretty much everyone said- it was more of an honor thing than a practical thing- and Itkovian wasn't all about saving malazan soldiers, etc. SF was probably on the "wait until we squish the Domin" track, but sometimes the many override the few. The 10000 Imass wanted something, and from Itkovian, and not many things are going to disagree with 10k T'lan Imass warriors.

Plus Itkovian's an old softie.

Wamp makes an EXCELLENT point to the efficacy of not bringing the Imass, though.

[caladanbrood]

SonOfDarkness;328908 said:

Onearms host suffered great casualties in that battle. And to me as that was happening I was thinking " dont worry the Imass are yet to come ". Then I realised Itkovian wont let them go and this would mean greater losses for One arms host. To me that was more heartbreaking. To watch all of them die as Itkovian held the Imass back to grant them salvation.

No love for all the fallen ones from the host? The timing was poor for the sacrifice.

Aye, but the series is a tragedy, people have to die, often in very crappy circumstances.

Let up a bit on the seige mentality:)

[Macros]

I directed my hate for this moment towards silverfox, had she made her intentions clear from the outset the imass wouldn't have jumped at the oppourtunity Ictovian offered them.
there were wahat, 400/500 k'ell hunters? 10,000 T'lan I'mass would have comprehensively wiped the floor with them, and QB had the seer in hand, it really annoyed me that it was nescessary plot device to decimate Dujek's host and finish off the Bridge Burners, but I also viewed it as a blessing, had the BB's survived intact, they would have had to deal with whiskeyjacks death.
I think Ictovian was such a tragic character and thats what makes it acceptable for him to be the scapegoat here, you can't hate the man for releasing 10,000 souls.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian;328827 said:

It's been a while since I read MoI but as far as I remember, it wasn't like Itkovian came running up in front of a marching column of Imass trying to ruin the battle.

As soon as the T'lan Imass sensed Itkovian they all turned and looked to him for the salvation that their last hope, the newly born flesh and born bonecaster, wouldn't give them.

If it was anyones fault it was Silverfox.

As for the many... strange choices the Grey Swords make. For them this is a matter of chivalry and honor. It is more important that life or death.

To be honest when I read the part where the T'lan Imass are brought to their knee's and become unavailable for the fight I made an inward grown directed at Erikson. It's a typical storyteller trick to bind the hands of the protagonists so it might suit what ever outcome is needed. It's thankfully not something Erikson does that often and so blatantly.

Yeah, Silverfox was a bitch.

And Itkovian irritated me a bit. Always calling people sir. And he got sooooooo emo after capustan. "Oh, I failed to hold the city. Pour tragedy on me." Silly.

Face it, though, I doubt Onearm's Host and the BB's would have escaped their losses. SE would have conjured something.

[BeLeG]

I still think that the Imass couldnt wait for their salvation.And their need clearly overwhelmed Itkovian.It rose like a great wave before him(or something like that).
As Macros wrote, Silverfox didnt make her intentions clear.The Imass would suffer heavy losses(500 kell hunters are more than enough imho) and the one and only chance for some kind of salvation was there before them.

Anwyay aint it just is right:SE would have thought of something else because the BB had to die,right?I'm glad he gave us such a strong scene

[Raraku]

Well in the first fight that we see of KCCM undead v.s T'Lan Imass undead there are 4 KCCM and the Imass lose about 60.
Here are the quotes :
"Four more demons, four hundred paces away and closing with the speed of boulders tumbling down a mountainside."

And then
"Itkovian stared across the basin. An army of corpses identical to the one beside him surrounded the demons, of which only two remained standing. The battle around those two creatures was horrible to witness. Pieces of the undead warriors flew in all directions, but still they kept coming, huge flint swords chopping into the demons, carving them down where they stood. A half-dozen heartbeats later, the fight was over.
The Shield Anvil judged that at least sixty of the fur-clad warriors had been destroyed."

So yeah the odds did favor the KCCM but with T'Lan Ay fighting by their sides they would have won.
Even if what Itkovian did was fool hardy and badly timed (though as it was said above by many needed) it doesnt take away from the fact that it was beautiful.

[Nameless One]

Quote

Memories . . . gone. In their wake, tens of thousands of souls. Silent.

"To me, then, I will take your pain, now."

"You are mortal."

"I am mortal."

"You cannot carry our pain."

"I can."

"You cannot deliver it--"

"I shall."

"Itkovian--"

"Your pain, T'lan Imass. Now."

It rose before him, a wave of immeasureable height, rose, towering, then plunged towards him.

And they saw, one and all.

They saw Itkovian's welcoming smile.

Here's my take: No choice = No sacrifice.

That he did not consider other options (waiting until after the battle, etc.) does not mean he had no other options. Itkovian chose to absolve the T'lan Imass at that moment and in that manner. As such, he should receive full credit for his actions, as well as full blame. To deny one is to deny the other.

Quote

I'm glad he gave us such a strong scene

Yes, it was lovely. Erikson is at his best with these scenes.


ETA: Yay, I can finally give rep!

I feel I should add that I'm intentionally staying out of the "Did Itkovian make the right choice?" debate. I'm merely addressing the "but he had no choice" claim.