[Midnight]

One thing that has been nagging at me is what was the point of the Tiste Edur empire? From the Crippled God's point of view, since he so unceremoniously abandons them at the end of RG. Was it just to sow havoc throughout the world? I kind of got the impression that it was all done in order to deliver the sword to Karsa but it seems there are other ways that require much less effort.

Perhaps it has something to do with what's out in the eastlands of the Letherii continent?

any thoughts?

Edit: Sorry! I just realized I posted this in the wrong forum, would a moderator please be so kind as to move it for me?

[Blacksox]

Midnight;326255 said:

One thing that has been nagging at me is what was the point of the Tiste Edur empire? From the Crippled God's point of view, since he so unceremoniously abandons them at the end of RG. Was it just to sow havoc throughout the world? I kind of got the impression that it was all done in order to deliver the sword to Karsa but it seems there are other ways that require much less effort.

Perhaps it has something to do with what's out in the eastlands of the Letherii continent?

any thoughts?

Edit: Sorry! I just realized I posted this in the wrong forum, would a moderator please be so kind as to move it for me?

I think the point of the Edur was to attract the main players to Letheri; the stage the CG wanted them at. I think he wanted Icarium, Karsa, and possible the adjuncts army there for some sinister purpose.

[buddhacat]

Think in terms of "What if the Edur had won...." Then, the Throne of Shadow would have been theirs. With it, probably command of (big chunk of) Kurald Emurlahn. And all the things it contains, like the 3 chained Dragons. In mundane events, The Edur empire expanding further and further, not only on the continent of Lether....

I think the Crippled God would have become incredibly more powerful, had the Edur gambit worked in his favor.

[D'rek]

More:

Though it was the Seven of the Dead Fires (or possibly other broken T'lan Imass) who knew where the First Throne was, the Edur empire had the resources to field armies against it, while a handful of T'lan Imass wouldn't have had a chance.

Rhulad's search for Champions may have killed many ascendants, would-be ascendants or powerful people that could have posed a threat later on. Every ascendant killed helps, right?

The CG operates through KE somehow because it is sundered, which allows him to make use of it. Though he didn't get the piece in Raraku, he is probably still using other fragments, and having the TE on his side probably benefits this, whether it be simply a matter of them guarding it or whether they have some effect on its magic as well.

[OtataralDragon]

I think the question is asked backwards. It's not that this is the outcome the CG was planning for all along. (As far as we can tell, anyway.) It's more that he saw a chance and took it; it didn't work out perfectly, but why should he care? He's not paying much of a price for it.

He abandoned the Edur because they were no use to him anymore. He squeezed them dry, then tossed them aside. If they'd still been useful to him, he'd still be pulling their strings. The CG doesn't hesitate to use anyone or anything that is available, and the Tiste Edur were.

[SonOfDarkness]

The Tiste Edur were in numbers excessing 150000 During there invasion of Lether. It was unfortunate that they did not rally in such numbers to put up a stand in RG.

It was careless in the part of the CG with Rhulad and the sword. If the sword didnt drive Rhulad insane and the CG had a sane emperor that would do his bidding, then I believe the Edur would have prevailed and the CG would be sitting on a nice foundation for his plans to conquer the world.

In my opinion the purpose what seemed to be in MT of the Edur was to conquer lether then to have a strong hold and foundation for the CG to conquer the world. CG seemed very complacent in his plan at the end of RG. He did not forsee the corruption that would infect the Edur via the Letheri ( triban gnol ). Having Karsa come to Lether and then offer him the sword at the end did not in my opinion seem like a plan extending that far back, to me it seemed more of a desperate attempt to salvage something out of nothing. Im sure the CG knew and knows that Karsa is not loyal to him.

I wonder how the CG will recover from this, we know the last book is named CG. Which means he should be bouncing back strong after this let down, perhaps he will tie himself to Scabbys Finnest and go that route. I really dont see where he will get his numbers for a war. I just dont see it, but I cant wait to find out.

[VampireGoat]

For all we know this could also be the basis for another feint. There are still 3 books to go so we're not at the point of 'HAHA CHAINED ONE! Your armies are defeated!'

We are still yet to see the CG's main hand, his trump card. The Red Mask and Twilight story lines have indicated a surviving K'Chain presense which I feel will come to play. In what way yet I've no idea but i doubt the resolution is going to be a simple 'oh so they weren't dead after all'.

So yea as far as I am concerened the Edur thing was simply another ploy like the panion domin. Purely stur up trouble, cause a bit of havoc, weaken a few enemies and wipe out a few altogether. It was also a baiting ground for the creation of a new set of tools, had Karsa taken the sword he would have had an immortal Toblackai at his beck and call. A large army of sizeable warriors, fueled by the CG would have been a true terror to behold.

Look at this from the CG's point of view, the Edur are ripe for his control, he doesn't even have to try very hard. Set them up and let them run merry havoc. Since his goals generally revolve around a large amount of people dieing, he can't turn down a chance to add to that agenda with all he needs to do is give a few nudges and shoves. 'Have a sword! have a bit of magic! no go forth and make people give you the respect you deserve!', thats how easy it was with Rhulad. How can someone looking to take out his suffering on the world refuse that? If all it does is keep his more serious plans masked a bit longer then its still an achievement. If all it did was cause a lot of slaughter and death, its no problem for the CG and hey he just might get a few new toys to play with as well if he's lucky.


So instead of why bother? What I think you should really ask is why not?

[Wordmerchant]

Also remember Rhulad was not the intended sword bearer. Thus the CG's long-range plan (whatever that was) was flawed from the moment Rhulad grabbed it. I think the ensuing events was CG trying to salvage something from the mess. Once everything started to get pear shaped, what's a god to do?

[D'rek]

Rhulad was the intended sword-bearer for the duration of which he held the sword. But it also appears to have been the CG's intent to have the sword passed on to Karsa (though the CG is a clever fellow who may just have been maneuvering Karsa as needed).

[Lister of Smeg]

I think it was always the CG's plan to have Karsa take the sword. I don't think he intended the Edur Empire to last as long as it did, and it only happened that way because Karsa refused to be led and ended up hanging around in Seven Cities for a few years.

In HoC, when Karsa kills Binadas and the other Edur in the Nascent, the Unbound come along afterwards and are quite annoyed by his actions. They intended for Karsa to be taken as a champion to face Rhulad back then. At least that is what I took from that scene. If that had happened, the Edur wouldn't have had the extra couple of years (exact time is unknown due to certain timeline errors, of course) and Karsa might even have accepted the sword back then.

[Macros]

would karsa have been the epic warrior he is now though when he happened upon binadas in the nascent? bot to mention the lack of one 6ft sword

[Wordmerchant]

A said:

Rhulad was the intended sword-bearer for the duration of which he held the sword.

I still think the sword was intended for the Warlock King, and Rhulad was being Rhulad when he snatched it. CG is trying to make the best of a flawed situation at that point.

[Midnight]

in Midnight Tides though the Crippled God is dissapointed with the Warlock King's lack of ambition. And in Reaper's Gale Rhulad is referred to as the "currency" between the two...I think Rhulad's lust for power made him an ideal candidate, it was only later that his inability to deal with the sword was revealed and perhaps exacerbated by Udinaas and the way he awakened compassion within Rhulad.

[D'rek]

Indeed, it is more or less specifically said that the CG chose Rhulad over the Warlock King because Hannan was only intending to defend the Edur lands, whereas Rhulad had ambition enough that the CG could convince him to progress offensively and conquer Lether.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Which would definitely suggest the driving purpose was to draw in Karsa as a champion/challenger through the exploring/champion finding the CG had in mind.

[Midnight]

Another factor is the idea in book 3 where Gethol states that the Crippled God welcomes in competition within the House of Chains. So perhaps his overall purpose of the empire was not to draw in Karsa but as Karsa grew more and more powerful he outstripped Rhulad as a candidate for the sword.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Quoted from Empress Janall in RG, in relevance to the TE:

"Master's done with them. Almost done."

[Midnight]

hehe that is the exact quote that started my train of speculation. It does seem to hint that Karsa is the main purpose but going back to my original post, isn't an entire empire a little bit excessive for the goal?

[OtataralDragon]

Midnight;328749 said:

hehe that is the exact quote that started my train of speculation. It does seem to hint that Karsa is the main purpose but going back to my original post, isn't an entire empire a little bit excessive for the goal?

Why? It didn't cost him anything. Besides, the Edur might have stayed in power, which would've given the CG a base to work from. It's not like he brought them down - he just waited around, then when it became obvious they'd fail, he ditched them.

The Edur controlled Lether for several years, remember. We don't know what went on there in the time between MT and RG. Maybe the CG used those years to arrange for some future plot we just don't know about yet.