[Vengeance]

paladin;342298 said:

im not just talking of alaska, which is so utterly humungous im not sure why we're not drilling more. im talking of all the offshore sites we have reserves confirmed at that we arent drilling(in the gulf, on the pacific coast, etc). black hills in south dakota is another significant reserve that remains unutilized.

then you have all the shale oil in the rockies. canada has its oil sands they are trying to develop into viable resources but noone is really working on shale oil here eventhough the us has between 2 and 3.5 trillion barrels worth of shale reserves and the richest quality shale yet seen(green valley deposits, which accounts for at least 1.5 trillion barrels). a bit of nimbyism does exist here as some of the reserves are in/near cities like Aspen, CO and such.

on top of that you have coal technology. coal can be converted into a fuel for vehicles, good clean coal technology exists, and the US again has the largest coal reserves on the planet.

so yea, there are plenty of things the US can do thats not just in anwar in order to alleviate foreign oil dependence. congress wont take action for the most part and it will continue to hurt us economically until someone convinces them into action

Well first of all I am not sure how you think that starting to drill in areas that are currently untouched will alleviate the current oil prices. Even if congress passed the law that would allow the oil companies to drill in more off shore locations then they can currently do now. They wouldn't be able to start drilling for a minimum of 5 years. Please take the time to read this article from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.c...9drillship.html

Why should congress bother to pass something that the oil companies can't even do. When you add it to the fact that fossil fuels are busing creating global warming and creating smog so bad that in several of the worlds major cities that people can't see the sun when it is out.

Clean coal is an oxymoron even if it burns clean the damage that it does to the people who mine it is horrendous. We should be concentrating on developing renewable sources of fuel. Nuclear power, Solar, wind, wave these are renewable sources of energy. If we have cars that run on batteries that can be charged, and the source of that charge is a renewable source of energy then we will finally have addressed and reached a solution to the oil problem.

Why should our country have to sacrifice our scenic areas to keep the cars of this nation moving? Should we leave nothing of nature for the generations to come? Do you feel that once you die it doesn't matter what happens to the world?

[HoosierDaddy]

paladin;342340 said:

Yes, and watching Bowling for Columbine tells an accurate story of gun control too eh?

The maker of the documentary was an EV1 leaser yes? Little bias?

I've lived in So Cal my whole life. I remember the EV1 and the humungous TV campaign pushing the vehicle and then only seeing ONE EV1 EVER on the road in subsequent months and years. People don't want something that different. They don't want to plug in for 20minutes or 20hours to wait to drive. The reason the electric car(specifically the EV1 as in the documentary) failed where the hybrid has not is because society doesn't give a shit about being "green" in any way possible, they give a shit about being inconvenienced. This doesn't mention the fact that gasoline was a dollar a gallon at the time. Folks that are adamant about this stuff are the vocal minority, just like in nearly every hotbutton issue.

While I would agree that inconvenience is a greater factor in purchasing than environmental concerns, there is something to be said about the fact that those cars threatened both Big Oil and Big Car.

By the way, comparing Moore's Bowling For Columbine with any legitimate documentary is unfair. People who take Moore seriously have already bought in and aren't analyzing or critical about the information they are receiving.

[Vengeance]

paladin;342340 said:

Yes, and watching Bowling for Columbine tells an accurate story of gun control too eh?

The maker of the documentary was an EV1 leaser yes? Little bias?

I've lived in So Cal my whole life. I remember the EV1 and the humungous TV campaign pushing the vehicle and then only seeing ONE EV1 EVER on the road in subsequent months and years. People don't want something that different. They don't want to plug in for 20minutes or 20hours to wait to drive. The reason the electric car(specifically the EV1 as in the documentary) failed where the hybrid has not is because society doesn't give a shit about being "green" in any way possible, they give a shit about being inconvenienced. This doesn't mention the fact that gasoline was a dollar a gallon at the time. Folks that are adamant about this stuff are the vocal minority, just like in nearly every hotbutton issue.

You live in So Cal, that is one of the areas that is currently protected from oil drilling. How would you like to go down to the beach and see oil washing up on shore from a slight spill. After all you would be able to see the drilling rigs from the beach. It wouldn't take a very big spill to see your beach covered in oil just a little on. They happen all the time.

[Shinrei]

Vengeance;342347 said:

Why should our country have to sacrifice our scenic areas to keep the cars of this nation moving? Should we leave nothing of nature for the generations to come? Do you feel that once you die it doesn't matter what happens to the world?

Large plots of land given over to solar arrays and skylines dotted with windmills isn't exactly "pristine wilderness" either.

paladin, one of the problems with drilling more is that, as I understand how the industry works, the oil drilled will end up on the world market. So it's not like we get to hoard what we drill on US soil. Thats the real reason why our undrilled oil fields are a "drop in the bucket".

I'm in the camp of people that thinks we're damned anyway we go. Our lifestyle is unsustainable without cheap, plentiful oil, and those days are slipping away. Alternative energy is not going to run our economy with the same fruitfulness. You can't power an airplane across the Pacific on a battery, and that's the least of it.

[paladin]

Vengeance;342349 said:

You live in So Cal, that is one of the areas that is currently protected from oil drilling. How would you like to go down to the beach and see oil washing up on shore from a slight spill. After all you would be able to see the drilling rigs from the beach. It wouldn't take a very big spill to see your beach covered in oil just a little on. They happen all the time.

no, so cal is full of oil derricks. they just havent been expanding them in recent times. take a boat ride down the coast or a car ride on PCH(or Ocean blvd in long beach). signal hill and long beach are both full of small patches of land with oil pumps on them. carson is full of oil processing facilities. and there is no oil flowing onto the beaches or down the streets.

[paladin]

Vengeance;342347 said:

Well first of all I am not sure how you think that starting to drill in areas that are currently untouched will alleviate the current oil prices. Even if congress passed the law that would allow the oil companies to drill in more off shore locations then they can currently do now. They wouldn't be able to start drilling for a minimum of 5 years. Please take the time to read this article from the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.c...9drillship.html

Why should congress bother to pass something that the oil companies can't even do. When you add it to the fact that fossil fuels are busing creating global warming and creating smog so bad that in several of the worlds major cities that people can't see the sun when it is out.

Clean coal is an oxymoron even if it burns clean the damage that it does to the people who mine it is horrendous. We should be concentrating on developing renewable sources of fuel. Nuclear power, Solar, wind, wave these are renewable sources of energy. If we have cars that run on batteries that can be charged, and the source of that charge is a renewable source of energy then we will finally have addressed and reached a solution to the oil problem.

Why should our country have to sacrifice our scenic areas to keep the cars of this nation moving? Should we leave nothing of nature for the generations to come? Do you feel that once you die it doesn't matter what happens to the world?

in reaction to everything you said, its a gradual thing. it will never be a "d-day" type deal where you just switch. ive already explained why its gradual and im not going to again because its my bedtime, but you can read up above to see my explaination. just keep in mind that people in general(at least in the US) are resistant to change unless you hold their hand, and that is why the standard non-plugin hybrid is a success.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

paladin;342340 said:

Yes, and watching Bowling for Columbine tells an accurate story of gun control too eh?

The maker of the documentary was an EV1 leaser yes? Little bias?

I've lived in So Cal my whole life. I remember the EV1 and the humungous TV campaign pushing the vehicle and then only seeing ONE EV1 EVER on the road in subsequent months and years. People don't want something that different. They don't want to plug in for 20minutes or 20hours to wait to drive. The reason the electric car(specifically the EV1 as in the documentary) failed where the hybrid has not is because society doesn't give a shit about being "green" in any way possible, they give a shit about being inconvenienced. This doesn't mention the fact that gasoline was a dollar a gallon at the time. Folks that are adamant about this stuff are the vocal minority, just like in nearly every hotbutton issue.

Of course it was biased, which helps prove my point. It was so successful that when it was forcibly taken away, it bothered people so much they made a documentary about it! While there may be some exxageretion in the film, there are some facts. People liked the car. Big Car Co took the car away. People were pissed, because they liked it. How did they know they liked it? Because they were willing to try something different, they gave a shit about being green, they were willing to plug in every night.

A big reason these people are a vocal minority is because not a lot of people even know what we could be using instead of combustion engines. I didn't know there was a car with a 150 mile charge, that isn't available anymore. I know a lot of people who would buy such a car, including me, but we were never given the chance.

Supposedly battery technology now is at the point where they could make a car that gets 300 miles to a charge. Who wouldn't want at least one of these, if this is true? How many people do you know who drive more than 300 miles in a typical day? Go around and ask people if they would rather plug in their car when they get home every night, which takes about 5 seconds, if it meant they would never have to buy gas again. You really think this idea would not be popular? Not overnight, but if it was given a fair chance, it would catch on.

[Optimus Prime]

30+ years ago we saw the oil crisis coming...what was done? Nothing really. People are way too fucking lazy or ignorant to change, plain and simple. I'm sorry, but if you drive a Hummer, you've got issues.

It's all tied together. The economic crisis, the planet's health, and big corporations that hold too much power.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Hopefully gas prices will make people realize that something needs to be done. When gas was a buck a gallon, there was no incentive for people to think about alternatives.

[Optimus Prime]

True. The US was spoiled while much of the rest of the world was already paying high prices.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

And now we've gotten so used to it I don't know if we can function any other way.
~RLY-My car gets 1 mpg highway, 0mpg city.

[Shinrei]

Xander;342561 said:

30+ years ago we saw the oil crisis coming...what was done? Nothing really. People are way too fucking lazy or ignorant to change, plain and simple. I'm sorry, but if you drive a Hummer, you've got issues.

It's all tied together. The economic crisis, the planet's health, and big corporations that hold too much power.

Xander, you seem like a pretty smart guy, but when you blanket statements with "plain and simple" it doesn't come across very well. Especially when you ignore the fact that the standard of living and economic growth we experienced over the past 30 years was due to that oil. So broadbrushing it as laziness and ignorance.... it's ignorant to overlook what inexpensive oil has done from technological advances to keeping goods and services relatively cheap. Cheaper oil has kept jobs in existence, increased farm output to feed more people, allowed low income families to live relatively well with more simple luxeries and in general has allowed more people worldwide to be clothed, fed and protected from the elements.

Without cheap oil, I predict that eventually the human population will drop and many things we take for granted will cease to be available.

Part of the problem is, when people think of oil the first thing that pops into the mind is cars. Personal automobiles are only a very tiny portion of oil consumed. I sneer at hummer drivers as much as anyone else, but they are a very small part of wasted oil.

I agree that people should:

Drive less.
Drive more efficiently and with more fuel efficient cars.
Buy local produce whenever possible.
Avoid buying bottled water and similar lazy comforts shipped from far away.
Turn the lights off.
Unplug electronics that just sit around on "standby"
Run less water.
Deal with a thermostat that's a few degrees higher in summer and few degrees lower in winter.
Carry your own tote bags to the grocer and refuse plastic bags wherever possible.
And many more.

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

But this will only do so much. One big one in my mind is to scale back the trucking industry and get more railways operational. Airlines should fly slower to conserve fuel. There are so many things that can be done, but any way you slice it we're in for rough times ahead because cheap oil is tied into just about every aspect of the infrastructures of developed nations.

Painting the average american (even a hummer driving jackass) as the sole cause of global warming and wasting oil is silly.

[Obdigore]

I don't think Xander is saying that the average american is the sole cause of global warming. I think you are falling to the Hyperbole monster after claiming someone else is doing just that.

Look, Oil has been cheap in America for decades. I agree, Shinrei, that the current infrastructure and way of living is dependent on the cheap oil. I do think that if the private sector realizes just how much money can be made by developing alternatives to oil, it would be a good start. I have faith in human ingenuity, even though I do not have faith in human common sense.

I personally see the current oil prices as a good thing for the US. It will cause the private sector to research alternatives, and will start making people more frugal, hopefully.

The only problem is that it is increasing the cost of living by a lot, since the goods affected are everything. Many lower income families are barely scraping by now, much less when everything is 10% more expensive. I know I won't be getting a 10% raise this year, so I will be effectively making less money next year than I did this year.

Hopefully the squeeze makes a change in our current society, towards more saving and a more local focus. The suburb mindset sucks if your area does not have good public transportation.

[Shinrei]

I think the way I read it was "consumers didn't learn anything from the oil crisis 30 years ago because they are stupid and lazy." I'm not denying that the lifestyle cheap oil provides is addictive, but it just sounded like he was placing the brunt of the fault on the average american.

I'm a big fan of local. I hit up the farmers markets and even drive a little farther to buy US grown produce at a specialty grocer over the Chinese or S. American stuff at my closest store.

[Obdigore]

I go to farmer's markets here. I buy everything else in the supermarket because the only local butcher shop I have found only speaks Korean. (The shop itself dosen't, but all the owners and workers refuse to speak english, if they can)

[Optimus Prime]

Shinrei no Shintai;342832 said:

Xander, you seem like a pretty smart guy, but when you blanket statements with "plain and simple" it doesn't come across very well. Especially when you ignore the fact that the standard of living and economic growth we experienced over the past 30 years was due to that oil. So broadbrushing it as laziness and ignorance.... it's ignorant to overlook what inexpensive oil has done from technological advances to keeping goods and services relatively cheap. Cheaper oil has kept jobs in existence, increased farm output to feed more people, allowed low income families to live relatively well with more simple luxeries and in general has allowed more people worldwide to be clothed, fed and protected from the elements.

Without cheap oil, I predict that eventually the human population will drop and many things we take for granted will cease to be available.

Part of the problem is, when people think of oil the first thing that pops into the mind is cars. Personal automobiles are only a very tiny portion of oil consumed. I sneer at hummer drivers as much as anyone else, but they are a very small part of wasted oil.

I agree that people should:

Drive less.
Drive more efficiently and with more fuel efficient cars.
Buy local produce whenever possible.
Avoid buying bottled water and similar lazy comforts shipped from far away.
Turn the lights off.
Unplug electronics that just sit around on "standby"
Run less water.
Deal with a thermostat that's a few degrees higher in summer and few degrees lower in winter.
Carry your own tote bags to the grocer and refuse plastic bags wherever possible.
And many more.

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

But this will only do so much. One big one in my mind is to scale back the trucking industry and get more railways operational. Airlines should fly slower to conserve fuel. There are so many things that can be done, but any way you slice it we're in for rough times ahead because cheap oil is tied into just about every aspect of the infrastructures of developed nations.

Painting the average american (even a hummer driving jackass) as the sole cause of global warming and wasting oil is silly.

Shin just because you read it that way doesn't mean it was my intent. I don't think the American Public is the "sole cause". However, we are a huge part of the problem because our society is perhaps the most wasteful on the Earth.

Perhaps I should've clarified. During the Energy crisis back in the 70's, both the government and the populace saw the potential for future problems. Back then, it seems that we just purchased and drilled more oil in preparation for this problem. However, we are all guilty of not pursuing alternative sources. Now, throw in the fact that the planet is suffering and we've got one big shit bomb waiting to go off.

And concerning your claims that "cheap oil" has helped the economy and keep other goods cheap, in the grand scheme of things, that's not as important as the long term affects on the planet and on the economy.

I am not ignorant to the fact that investing in other sources of energy is expensive...to start...but we have to do it. We should've started doing it in the 70's. There are many reasons why this wasn't done.

1. Too much reliance on Oil and it's effect on the economy.
2. Ignorance of the problem. EVERYONE is guilty of this.
3. Corporations with too much power politically.
4. Alternative Transportation methods were not invested in (Trains, Rails)
5. Buildings/Homes need regulations on how efficient they must be.

I could go on. We must act now.

[Shinrei]

But things are changing, and in a good way. 5 years ago there weren't hybrids on the road, "energy star rated" appliances and household building materials were not household names and "buy local" campaigns were non-existant.

As obdigore points out, the market corrects itself. Higher energy prices are changing lifestyles and promoting conservation much better than anything else has in the past. People are smart enough to recognize that the $4 lightbulb will save them $50 in energy savings over the $2 bulb.

Stores in Japan are now charging for bags, so people are bringing their own. Electric cars and other types as well as better hybrids are on their way.

The big problems remain in the rest of societies infrastructure. AND, the big energy crisis is going to happen as the result of developing countries. China and India especially need to get their shit together. The thing is, they are at a point where they could set up the infrastructure of their societies to embrace green energy. The problem is, they won't like to because oil can make them richer and modern so much quicker.
This is where I agree with you - the path of least resistance is most often the path that humans follow.

But as someone else said earlier, can you exactly blame them for wanting what we take for granted?

[Optimus Prime]

China's reliance on 2 stroke engines is a major problem. Things are changing Shin, but fast enough? Not in my mind.

[Skywalker]

Shinrei no Shintai;343001 said:

AND, the big energy crisis is going to happen as the result of developing countries. China and India especially need to get their shit together. The thing is, they are at a point where they could set up the infrastructure of their societies to embrace green energy. The problem is, they won't like to because oil can make them richer and modern so much quicker.

This is where I agree with you - the path of least resistance is most often the path that humans follow.

But as someone else said earlier, can you exactly blame them for wanting what we take for granted?

In defense of India (never visited China so cannot comment on it)...

1) Fuel efficiency standards in India are some of the tightest in the world. India also uses more scooters/ motorcycles than those in the west could imagine, and while public transport is just as bad as anywhere in the world, a lot of people do rely on it.

2) Alternate energy - I can tell you from personal experience that solar, wind, and something we locally call bio-gas (basically fuel generated from cow crap) is picking up in a huge way in India. A much debated pact with the US is almost causing a government upset because India wants more nuclear power (as opposed to the traditional huge and costly hydro-electric plants that aren't worth the trouble).

3) You should see some of the funky anti-plastic bag movements that have sprung up all over India. Many stores sell cloth-bags that you can reuse.

When a westerner says 'India needs to get its shit together', it just makes a regular Indian joe (such as myself) angry. Why?

Because we are already ahead of the curve from you when it comes to conservation (and not just energy). The intent is there, the policies are there (or are in process) etc.

The big problem with India is scale. We are a young, rapidly growing nation of over a billion. Yes, as more people become more affluent they will want cars, and they will want more and better food, and this will hurt everyone because commodity prices will shoot up.

Thing is, after almost two centuries of abject poverty and exploitation by empires, India does not 'owe' anyone anything.

For the US to say you can't solve the problem without India/ China is OK. We agree... For them to make that a pre-condition is downright stupid since they are behind the curve, and the largest consumer/ polluters to boot.

For them to further say that the onus is on India (or Brazil or China) is fucking arrogant. What they are saying is basically:

'We've been cocksure about using oil and have been raping the environment for 200 years. Now that these new nations are doing it too, we think they should take the responsibility for any effects thereof. Don't follow our example into oblivion... while we wont change our ways'

Gaaah.

No wonder the US got booed at the climate conference in Bali.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007...ed=networkfront

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Xander;342966 said:

4. Alternative Transportation methods were not invested in (Trains, Rails)

Not only were they not properly invested in, they were deliberately sabotaged. Car companies bought up light rail and public transit systems for the sole purpose of dismantling them, and so increasing people's need to own a car.