[Danyah]

Every specialist in genetics refutes Watson statements. There is still no scientific proof that intelligence is genetically linked to colour of skin or whatnot.

Watson makes a basic scientific error in his causality.

He connects general lower school grades, lower chances on job market, etc, of black people with a wrong cause in a wrong domain, namely genetically structured intelligence.

But, since he is the one, together with Crick, who discovered the structure of DNA, everybody listens to him. Meanwhile, every bachelor student in sociology could explain those differences by societal structures of exclusion, poverty, etc...

Instead of looking at the (under)representation of black people in governmental structures, banks, places of power, resulting in having less power, resulting in general exclusion, poverty demotivation to participate in a racist society,... Watson just calls them stupid.

Secondly, up to today, scientists aren't capable of accurately defining nor measuring intelligence. There is no consensus. We consider a PhD in maths highly intelligent. A tribal people would think he is retarded because he wouldn't be capable of catching his own food. It all comes down to nurture and acculturation.

[stone monkey]

Wow. No neg rep. That's a surprise.

Anyway my point was numbers - count 'em. And I'm quite willing to admit that humans in general have been extraordinarily bad for one another whatever their colour. The technology and the opportunities for mass produced death dealing generated by it - I live in the country that invented concentration camps, for instance - have been primarily in the hands of white males of Western or European descent.

And if we want to talk about indirect slaughter - if you're going to sell a bunch people who have hated one another for centuries a bunch of AKs, what the hell do you think they're going to do with them? Especially as when - in the case of Rwanda, for instance - a bunch of white guys (Belgians on this occasion) have managed to draw the borders that hem the two opposing groups in, in the wrong place... If they'd had nukes, or a working military industrial complex who knows how many they'd have got through.

As Cougar pointed out, I'm old - although not that old - it was my parents' generation on the Windrush, thanks. And I grew up in a time when a lot of white folks would quite happily treat me as a subhuman (the 70s and 80s) which lead to a certain number of rules for self preservation: white guys who you didn't know were okay or a) were in groups or were drunk or c) were carrying a national flag or d) were wearing police or army uniforms or e) just felt like hurting you - were all things to be avoided.

[Terez]

I think that racism is changing a lot in the younger generations, at least where I am from. There are more white kids "acting black" now than there ever were black kids "acting white". I think the younger kids in the US are increasingly repulsed by racism, as we move farther away from the worst of it in our history. They feel less responsible for it, but at the same time they're willing to do more to balance it. Racism is still there, but I think younger kids are more aware of the illogic and injustice of it than their parents, in general. Affirmative action policies might one day be obsolete, but they aren't yet, imo.

Just because it's relevant, I'll tell a story about how I lost my job once due to the overeagerness of affirmative action. I might have told this story once before, but whatever.

I had been at my job for over 10 years, working in close to 20 locations in my area, with hundreds of people over the years, many of which I had known since before I was even old enough to work there, because my dad started working for the company when I was 11 or 12. The atmosphere of the workplace is at the same time extremely casual and highly stressful. Often fights between employees break out in front of customers, lol.

So one day, me and a black girl I work with get into it in front of customers. It's not really surprising to anyone that she and I got into it (including to either of us, because we're both kinda hot-tempered). She came out onto the floor upset about something (I don't recall what), and she got into it first with one older lady, then with the dyke cook, then with a younger girl (all of these are employees), and she ended up with me and I faced her down about whatever-it-was, and everyone thought we were going to go to blows, but we didn't. So we went to the back, and she called me names, and I called her names, and my manager and this other girl were back there at the time.

So the girl leaves, and she called up the other younger girl she had gotten into it with, who was pregnant, and threatened her and the baby by saying something like, "If you care about your baby, you'll do whatever-it-was." Stupid drama. So because of the latter mostly, my district manager moves the black girl to another location. She then called our corporate hotline and filed a complaint on my district manager because she felt like she shouldn't have been the one that was forced to move, because me and the pregnant girl get into it with people all the time too.

So some investigator from corporate office shows up and questions everyone that was there the day me and the girl got into it. When it's my turn to go in there, the investigator gets me to write out my testimony and all, and then she asks me, "Did you call her a n****?" I said no. I called her a bitch, but not that (I never use that word...I'm young enough I guess to feel extremely uncomfortable even saying it). She says, "Well, I have other witnesses that say that you said it." And then she handed me a severance notice that was already filled out with my name and SSN and everything, and says I'm fired, and I can never work for this company again. Needless to say, I was upset - I was crying when I left her, and my district manager (who was one of those I had known since I was 12) was obviously upset, but said he couldn't do anything about it.

So, to make a long story short, I found out later that the investigator had asked everyone if they had heard me say that. She got one girl - a white girl who has disliked me for years - to say that I had said it. Everyone else, including the black girl I got into it with, told the truth. I had to write a letter to the CEO of my company and get signed statements from everyone who was questioned except for the one white girl, and I had to get a division manager (not my own - my dad's boss) to call the head of the legal department, who she knew, to tell her (quite truthfully) that the white girl in question was known for being cruel and for trying to get people fired, and had called the corporate hotline herself at least a dozen times over the years (not to mention all the times she called the cops on people or called DHS to try to get people's kids taken away).

So this is what happened: the black girl filed the complaint on the district manager. The company didn't want to lose the district manager, but they're so paranoid about getting sued by this black girl that they go after me, because judging from the girl's testimony, firing me might possibly appease her. Needless to say, she was not appeased. By the time the investigation came around, she wasn't even upset with the district manager any more.

All of this happened to me, at the core, because of affirmative action. But how can I hold the system responsible? I choose to hold the people who made the wrong decisions in my company's legal department responsible instead, because affirmative action is about opportunity, and I know that the playing field is not yet equal.

Now a few years later, I'm in school full time, but I still sometimes work at this job on holidays or weekends. I'm working for the same district manager, except he's been promoted to division manager now. The black girl moved to Kentucky. The white girl liar quit and works somewhere else now, thank god. My new district manager is an old friend of mine that I used to get high with back in the day when she was dating my best friend. She was complaining to me the other day, because our area manager (division manager's boss) is black, and 27 out of the 29 managers they have hired in the years since he got the job have been black. She's really upset about it, because two of them are working for her, and they both suck - one of them in particular is really bad. She feels like it's a racial conspiracy, but I reminded her that she's had plenty of white managers working under her over the years that she wasn't able to get rid of for this reason or that. Why is it any different, just because they're black?

So, I've been the victim of affirmative action. My dorm this past year was about 80% black, and I noticed that the girls on my floor got a lot better financial aid than I get. Am I bitter? Am I complaining? No, because what would be the point? The bitterness and complaining would just prolong the situation that makes affirmative action necessary, wouldn't it?

[Urb]

They actually had you fired because they were afraid of being sued by a black person. Wow! The legal system over there is insane. No wonder you guys aren't allowed to unionise. Your employers would shit themselves everytime someone broke a nail.

[Macros]

This raises a whole other issue in my mind, how Lawyers are scum and the downfall of many an innocent company, frivolous lawsuits (call me an asshole but I'm going blatantly say america is the worst for it and started the growing trend) are destroying society

[Nequam]

I'm not that familiar with many of these lawsuits and I really don't know what kind their are in other countries...but from I've seen in the news and heard from others I think you're right. It is destroying (in some ways, not everything) Like when that burgler sued the home owner when he fell and hurt himself while trying to rob them. HE WON! Crazy.

[Macros]

thats shit and the likes of people getting millions from mcds for burning their tongue on coffee
coffee was hot!
no shit

[Battalion]

I hear that in some states in the u.s you have to have a warning on the last step of a ladder, telling people it's the last step of the ladder, because a guy fell off of one once.

[Macros]

oh all steps come with do not free stand warning over here as well.
H&S regs state the last 2 steps are no go zones, in casse you're a twat and overreach

[dktorode]

Well, im South African...and Cause has pretty much said all that needs saying about AA or BEE in our country.
But there is one thing that is just down right fucked up that he hasnt mentioned (or didnt know)
That the East Asian (Chinese, Taiwanese, etc etc) community that have immegrated here from before apartheid have been screwed royaly, Asians were considered to be non-white in the old regime, getting the same treatment as the blacks, coloureds, indians etc. etc.

But now in the New South Africa, with all our wonderfull AA and quotas and so on.
The new gouvernment turns around and has now labeled them white!

How do you like them apples?

[Macros]

I havent tried them but I'm guessing the asians find them crisp and bitter

[dktorode]

Macros;322629 said:

I havent tried them but I'm guessing the asians find them crisp and bitter

Well if you were considered black when blacks where opressed and then white when the tables turn i reckon yes, they would be bitter.

[Terez]

dktorode;322592 said:

Well, im South African...and Cause has pretty much said all that needs saying about AA or BEE in our country.
But there is one thing that is just down right fucked up that he hasnt mentioned (or didnt know)
That the East Asian (Chinese, Taiwanese, etc etc) community that have immegrated here from before apartheid have been screwed royaly, Asians were considered to be non-white in the old regime, getting the same treatment as the blacks, coloureds, indians etc. etc.

But now in the New South Africa, with all our wonderfull AA and quotas and so on.
The new gouvernment turns around and has now labeled them white!

How do you like them apples?

That's fucked up. If Asians were victims of Apartheid, then they should reap the benefits of AA as well...unless there's something I'm missing?

[Macros]

theres not, its fubar.

eta: (in repsonse to terez)

[Terez]

Urb;322482 said:

They actually had you fired because they were afraid of being sued by a black person. Wow! The legal system over there is insane. No wonder you guys aren't allowed to unionise. Your employers would shit themselves everytime someone broke a nail.

Well, there are tons of cases of discrimination that are filed all the time, and black people usually have the advantage in the courtroom (I consider this advantage to be an aspect of affirmative action), so often frivolous lawsuits are honored with victories. So I can understand the paranoia of my company, but at the same time, they made the wrong choice. My mom defended discrimination lawsuits for another company, and she never lost a discrimination case (she says they were all frivolous and I hope she was right). So I think people just need better lawyers.

Yeah, frivolous lawsuits are annoying. I agree that it's too easy to sue in my country.

[Macros]

better lawyers?
the only good lawyer is a.......

[Shinrei]

There are actually disabled people who say that the US Federal Disabilities Act, has actually made it harder for many disabled people to get a job.

Why?

Because now that the disabled have an entire law geared specifically to them underwhich they can sue their employer, employers see disabled people as lawsuits waiting to happen and are afraid to hire them!

[Terez]

Going back a bit:

Shinrei no Shintai;321181 said:

Hmm, that got me thinking that we should actually EXPAND affirmative action.

Because in the USA the North beat the South and the North tends to be wealthier and holds more manufacturing and big business jobs we should make it so anyone proving citizenship in a Southern state should get preference for a job in the North. That'll help all those poor Southerners get out of poverty.

We could come up with a lot of these I bet.

On a more serious note, development in the South is what the South needs, which will take some time. I live in Mississippi, which is in general serious hick country with horrible education systems and prevalent racism, but I live on the Gulf Coast, so it's a bit more urban where I am, despite the fact that we got creamed by a hurricane a few years back. So in general, my area of the state is more progressive in all ways, and not a bad place to live. Finding employees is a bigger problem than finding a job.

[stone monkey]

My sympathies for the travails of a lot of people in this thread are limited. You guys are part of the demographic that rules the world; you get a foot up the ladder on most people simply by being born.

An analogy might be my lack of sympathy for the misfortunes of some of the people hit by the recent fall in house prices. If someone insists on chiming up and complaining about how their house was worth £1 million a few months ago and is now only worth £980,000 my reply to them is going to be; "Dude, you own a house worth 980 grand, WTF reason have you got to complain?"

[caladanbrood]

stone monkey;323370 said:

My sympathies for the travails of a lot of people in this thread is limited. You guys are part of the demographic that rules the world; you get a foot up the ladder on most people simply by being born.

An analogy might be my lack of sympathy for the misfortunes of some of the people hit by the recent fall in house prices. If someone insists on chiming up and complaining about how their house was worth £1 million a few months ago and is now only worth £980,000 my reply to them is going to be; "Dude, you own a house worth 980 grand, WTF reason have you got to complain?"

Aye, if my only problem is that I don't help anyone's equal-opportunities quotas by being in any relevant demographic (white, male, middle-class, decent education, not disabled), I'm fairly satisfied with my lot, personally.