[Slum]

Thelomen Toblerone;315437 said:

This makes no sense to me personally. Not only did I play no role in slavery, but I have absolutely no idea whether my ancestors did or not. Therefore, me taking any responsibility is about as nonsensical as feeling culpable for the genocide in WW2, because Germans are also white.

Interestingly linked- would you say present day Germans should apologise for the sins of their grandfathers during the war?

The 'I didn't endorse it, so what does it have to do with me?' argument is garbage. I realize that that's the immediate sentiment that springs to mind in these matters, but c'mon, look at the bigger picture.

It takes a whole lot more to make up for enslaving/whatever an entire race than the knowledge it was atrocious. If you're unhappy with the steps taken to make right a wrong, then start a committee or something.

After all, we can't punish our forefathers for their transgressions when they're already dead. And we can't make reparations to dead folk either. Any semblance of making things right must be done now, even if it 'wasn't our fault' to begin with.

[Shinrei]

Slumgullion...

This is supposed to make everyone feel better? This actually solves something? By admitting guilt and making reparations for an entire race everything is all better?

I'm sorry, this idea you're supporting is absolutely ridiculous. People want to live out their lives as best they can, and it is counterproductive to start saddling our children with our own guilt. How can we ever advance as humans if we are always dragged down by something over which we have no control? The progress of the human race beyond these tragedies is important. Remember them, yes, atone eternally for them, no.

All I can say is, what you suggest is certainly a depressing way to look at life.

[Macros]

Astra;315456 said:

I wanted to ignore it but I cannot.

I totally disagree with you.
It is about slavery, holocaust or nukes on Japan.

I believe you confuse two very different things. Feeling guilty and being disrespectful.

My opinion:
Today's generation of Americans or European should not feel guilty about aforementioned tradegies. It is not their fault what happened long time ago. I am with you on this one.
I disagree with something else. I don't get your attitude towards jokes about these tragedies.

For example. Your parents are being crashed in a car accident (G-d forbid). Your friends learn about all the details. In about 10 years you all meet. It was not their fault your parents have died. So, thet start to make jokes about how parents were crossing the street or doing something else and forgot that they are in the middle of the road and they are being....etc etc. Would you feel OK with it? It is a thing from the past. Your friends should not feel gulity about it.

The same applies about jokes you would say about holocaust or slavery or anything else. How can you make a joke about holocauss in front of me when my granddad died in WWII? When I saw elderly people with tattoos from camps and know what they had to go through? When more than a half of my people were annihilated just for being jews? You or Germans should not feel guilty. I agree, but making jokes about such tradegy? It is beyond me. If we were to meet in RL I would avoid any contact with you.

(Americans should not feel guilty for nukes but making jokes about it?)

I don't comprehend it.

wow, how is my parents dying in a car crashs and my friends joking about it anything like what I said?
Its not. why is it not? because my parents dying in a car crash would affect me directly. As I said earlier in the thread, young jews getting wound up when someone makes an off colour remark about the holocaust is stupid, they weren't there, their parents weren't there, they've likely had no interaction with anyone who was there. People can take ubrage if it affected them directly, saying it affected their "race as an entirity" is downright ridiculous. I'm not making jokes about the holocaust, for the record, it was an extreme example to get my point accross.
I was talking about YOUNG black people, ala the rappers that spout rubbish about oppression by the white man when they weren't alive when it was rampant.
Looking back at history is supposed to make us learn from our ancestors mistkaes, lest we repeat them. By making a topic taboo you only increase the negative influence associated with it.


ETA: totally agree with shinrea (not sometihng that happens very often)

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

The reason why whites should have some sense of ownership to the events in the past is simple. Even though you had nothing to do with the slavery and oppression from years back, you benefit from it every day. It has been systematically ensured that whites will have the easier road.

[Astra]

Macros;315496 said:

I'm not making jokes about the holocaust, for the record, it was an extreme example to get my point accross.

You said it yourself here holocaust
That's why I mentioned it.
First of all it still affects most of jews. Most likely their grand parents suffered from it. I am not that old to say it. I am 34. It is such a tradegy that we are scared to death that it might repeat one day again, we are still to a certain degree afraid of it. So, we remember it and joking about it is a no no.
Second, I cannot imagine how it is possible to make a joke about a thing such as holocaust when people were burned alive in houses, gas cameras, medical experiments without anastetics. I just don't understand. It was such a tradegy.

Maybe my sense of humour is wrong or I don't have one.

I really do not want to repeat myself, so I will say it last time. I don't think people should feel guilty today for what their grand grand parents have done but I don't understand jokes about some sensetive subjects. Even if you don't see holocaust as a big deal, maybe it would be wise just to respect other's people feeling and not to make a joke of it. But it is entirely up to you and it should not be a matter of prosecution or anything like that. It is up to people whether to like it or just ignore the jokers and not make friends with them.

[Macros]

I mentioned it, I wasnt making jokes about it. You're afraid of it happening again? If that an honest statement I must confess complete shock. In todays media orientated world it simply couldn't happen without the world knowing immeadiately and taking action.
I think me using my Holocaust example has clouded what I was in essence trying to say on the race issue, I don't buy into people using the white man was a slaver arguement to justify Affirmative action or let black racists of the hook so easily, slavery was abolished over a hundred years ago and it affects no-one alive today, regardless of the negative conotations tagged on the "N word".
I admit my mistake regarding the holocaust clearly is alive in many living peoples memories, with the living war vets numbers diminishing yearly I forgot there would be a lot of people you were just children during the war and so would only be in their 60's now. I think the holocaust popped into my head because of the outrage directed at prince Harry when he wore a Nazi uniform to a fancu dress party, I couldn't understand why it was such an issue, its fancy dress, where the object is to dress as something you blatantly are not. (I was considering the ridiculous reactions that the papers throw out when a celebrity makes "racist" faux pax (sp))
the post you responded to

macros said:

Thats sort of my arguement with young black people bringing up the oppressoin their forefathers were under, its irrelavent to them, they weren't out in the field picking cotton all day, so I shouldn't feel bad about making jokes about it, its in the past and didn't affect the person I'm joking with/ about

Was solely in reference to the slavery/ racism issue

@RLY

Quote

The reason why whites should have some sense of ownership to the events in the past is simple. Even though you had nothing to do with the slavery and oppression from years back, you benefit from it every day. It has been systematically ensured that whites will have the easier road.

I totally disagree with this statement, its still punishing whites for a crime they did not commit. Niether I nor my ancestors had any hand in the slave trade, why should I take any sense of ownership for any benefits real or percieved from it? Why should I be indirectly punished (the current "quota" systems in effect) for actions I had no part in?

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Interesting thread. Nice to see it hasn't devolved in the way this topic often does.


The lack of cultural assimilation is one of the major causes of prejudices here. This failure is something I myself cannot understand, or at least cannot stand. I could care less whether anyone falls in love with local sports, food, music, etc., but there are things that everyone should learn. For example, some of the complaints about discrimination in local news lately have centred around those who have been written off during job interviews because they cannot speak english and/or french. It really doesn't matter how qualified you are, if you cannot communicate with co-workers or clients you are useless to a company. I've known a number of immigrants on both extremes of this. Some have quit speaking thier mother tongue the second they immigrated, and some cannot string together a complete sentence in english thirty years after immigrating. Many people harbour dislike of the latter circumstance and of course fail to distinguish between different levels of fluency when exercising thier prejeduces.

The second part of this that drives dislike is that the legal system leads to greater rights for some groups over others. For example, by law anyone riding a motorcycle must wear a helmet, and anyone working in an area with overhead hazards must wear a hard hat. Due to freedom of religion, Sikhs are exempt from these laws. Most care less whether Sikhs wear adequate protective gear or not, so long as they are treated similarly to others who do not follow safety regs. Eg. no insurance coverage for head wounds caused while riding a motorcycle with no helmet or, as a compromise, higher insurance rates to account for the greater probability of injury payments.

Of course much prejudice is inbred and has no connection to reality, but demands for priveleges nobody else has does fuel the dislike.

[Cause]

Macros;315508 said:

I mentioned it, I wasnt making jokes about it. You're afraid of it happening again? If that an honest statement I must confess complete shock. In todays media orientated world it simply couldn't happen without the world knowing immeadiately and taking action.

Yup were doing such a good job in Darfur now and we certainly learnt from rwanda. The holocaust happened and genocide is still happening today. Is darfur a second holocaust? Maybe not but the real difference at the end of the day is zero. Besides its not like the world did not know back in world war two what was going on. Nuremberg laws etc etc.

That said I think theirs a diffrence between holocaust deniers and such things and holocaust jokes. Im jewish and I know alot of jokes about it I think are funny. (This gem for instance. 'Where do black jews go, the back of the oven') Theirs also going to far, when my jewish school played the german school at rugby and the supporters dressed up as nazi officers we have a problem.

Finally I cant help but agree with those who have pointed out that things in the past can affact the present. I live in South africa and not europe because of the pressure on jews to immigrate from europe to anyhere they could because of the holocaust.

Black people have not been slaves in america for a century and longer and black people in SA today have all the rights I do. That said black people in my country still suffer from having an entire generation without an education above grade 8 at best. Im sure similiar things can be said for america. Im not against saying they had and still face problems today because of apartheid. However when i go to the same univeristy as their children we write the same tests and I do better but he gets the job because hes black I feel resentment. I thnk affirmative action is harmfull in the longrun as well.

So I have no problem with goverment paying their fees at varsity when they cant pay it themselves because so soon after apartheid they cant afford it themselves. However to discriminate whites in some effort to readdres the past is a cylce of discrimination, and privilage that will never balance.

[Urb]

Macros;315508 said:

I totally disagree with this statement, its still punishing whites for a crime they did not commit. Niether I nor my ancestors had any hand in the slave trade, why should I take any sense of ownership for any benefits real or percieved from it? Why should I be indirectly punished (the current "quota" systems in effect) for actions I had no part in?

You are benefiting from it right now. That makes you a part of it. There's a reason why western Europe and North America are so much better off than South America, Africa and Asia. We've practically been raping them through trade which has had very little benefit to anyone but ourselves. And we're still doing it (to some extent). I'm not saying we should walk around feeling ashamed, but we certainly shouldn't bitch about it when we have to give something back.

Besides, what other alternative is there to affirmative action? Do you have a better solution? Maybe we should just let things be and wait for the coming generations to gradually assimilate? That hasn't worked yet, so why would it suddenly work now?

[Silencer]

@Urb, it's pointless trying to 'make it better' when the world is what it is. If people can't accept what happened and move on the issue will never go away - do you want it stay around forever? The issue of employment is simple: it's based on a candidates merits. The best candidate wins. Now, the problem with this is when a person thinks someone else is 'better' because of race, but are quotas necessarily the solution? Imagine if everyone applying for a job is pretty equal, except for one black guy - if he doesn't get hired, is that racism? I don't think it is.

Punishing the current generation for what some older generation did is wrong. Should the descendants of vikings be punished for burning, killing and pillaging hundreds of towns? That's silly. What's done is done - both sides need to GET OVER IT and move on. I have. Except for the little fact that some people can't seem to do it. Both white and black people. But I'm curious as to why. It really shouldn't be that hard to forgive - why do you want to keep digging the issue back up? It simple points out the differences between the races if we do.

That was a poor post, but it's early in the morning, forgive me, please.

I tend to agree with Astra - the current generations shouldn't feel guilty, but we shouldn't exactly make jokes about it. At the same time, I can sort of see where Mac is coming from - if it's far enough in the past, then it shouldn't offend. The problem is deciding what is "far enough".
Slum, I really can't see where you are coming from. What is there to make up to todays generations? Should all white people become black people's slaves? I bring it back again to the children of the mass-murderer.....should they be locked up too?

[Macros]

I still dont see how me benefiting from somebody elses actions makes me in anyway culpable. Am I supposed to suddenly give up whatever "benefits" I have because some wealthy english types ran a slaving business? me thinks not.
Affirmative action only further highlights difference in race and generates bad feelings in those who get shafted by it. Its the same as making words, phrases or topics Taboo, it highlights an issue and attachs a negative sentiment to it. Its like religion over here, I have friends from school who would struggle to have a civilised conversation with a catholic. And whilst I have a lot of catholic friends I know several people that simply ignore me because I'm a protestant, is biggotry still a problem here? clearly yes, nowhere near the extent of 20/30 years ago but its still an issue. My solution to it? turn it into the biggest joke possible, the majourity of the banter I have with my catholic friends revolves around me being the "token black guy" of the group, and when I get one over on them its my protestant superiority shining through. I rarely call them anything polite, taig, rebel bog bastard, filthy romans and the like, in return i'm that black bastard or the dirty hun. Its reduced those words value to zero to us, when someon does try and give me grieve about my religion when in te catholic end of town its laughed of and nothing is taken from it. Then the douchebag acting tough looks like an even biggerr douche bag than everr.
By avoiding the topic, and making a fuss over it you make it a much bigger issue when somebody inevitably throws out a biggoted comment.

[Slum]

Huh...reading over my previous posts, I seem a bit melodramatic. I was in the sauce a bit when I wrote them. They don't make all that much sense.

Honestly, I'm just not that passionate about the issue. I don't have a problem with affirmative action and EOEs; I see where it is necessary. That doesn't mean I like it that I might lose out on a job or whatever.

And I don't harbor any guilt over slavery. But I don't really feel like affirmative action is much of a burden to bear. That's just me.

Really, in the US we're not that far removed from segregation, 40-50 years or so, and racial prejudice is still prevalent in the workplace. I guess the debate in this thread indicates that maybe quotas are just exacerbating that problem.

And I do get annoyed with black youths that play up the "the white man is keeping me down" bit.

I should probably just stay out of discussion threads as I'm not much of a debater. *runs away to the inn*

[Shinrei]

You know, I should be clear that I'm not saying guilt* is wrong necessarily. If an individual chooses to give money to a charity which would largely benefit a black community, that's great. If a group of people want to get together and build a memorial to the victims of the holocaust or Hiroshima and Nagasaki or give time or money for humanitarian aid in Africa, that's wonderful. People SHOULD do these things because its the right thing to do and in not only enriches those they help, but the helper's life as well. It should be encouraged and praised.

But it should remain a choice. Once it becomes a mandate to give to all these groups or give preferential treatment, it not only breeds resentment but it takes away those personal feelings of doing something good because it is suddenly required rather than a choice.

Obviously I'm not advocating that doing good deeds should only be done because they make you feel good personally. What I'm advocating is that it should be a choice. And everyday, I see people making these good choices, so I'm confident that we are capable of helping each other without it becoming some new government program.

(Personally, I don't view it as guilt at all, just the right thing to do.)

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;315498 said:

The reason why whites should have some sense of ownership to the events in the past is simple. Even though you had nothing to do with the slavery and oppression from years back, you benefit from it every day. It has been systematically ensured that whites will have the easier road.

How do modern day white people benefit from the slave trade any more than modern day black people?

[Macros]

so tempted to make a cotton farming related joke but I like how this thread hasn't degenerated into bad jokes just yet
I don't think you can say my family has in anyway benefited from the slave trade, I think its a way for people to try and justify "anti white" racism and affirmative action. What ever land my family owns my father, grandfather and great grandfather worked damn hard to get, there were no slaves involved in its aquisition or working of it.

[amphibian]

The Tyrant Lizard;317443 said:

How do modern day white people benefit from the slave trade any more than modern day black people?

Why do males continue to make more money than females? We gave them the right to vote, passed a whole passel of laws, and stopped thinking of them as inferiors. Didn't we?

Despite your thinking, white privilege is a very real fact and should be included in any honest discussion of racism and the continuing disparity between "races".

[Cause]

Say whatever you like at the end of the day women are not men and men are not women. Without going any further than one issue that can be at the heart at a women career prospects lets look at maternity leave.

http://en.wikipedia..../Parental_leave

We see that women in general recieve paid leave far in excess of male employees. So they are 1) getting paid for a job they are not doing. 2) The sudden dissapearance from work for anywhere from 3-18 months is really going to effect the way your colleagues see you when you get back. If you two days away from promotion and than go on 18 months leave you should hardly expect that promotion when you get back.

So untill the injustice of varying degrees of parental leave is addressed women cant really complain about other injustices. Its also odd I find that feminist groups are strangly silent about campainging for the right to be conscripted into the armed forces during wars

Living in South Africa I wont deny white privelage exist. That said I cant agree with policies that deny me rights. I am fine with giving privlages to the previously disadvantged, In my country they qualify for free water, electricity, education. However I think simply turning the tables and saying black people now get jobs in prefrence to white people is not fighting injustice, it simply puts the point of the sword at a new target.

[amphibian]

Cause, you make solid points, but this -

Cause;317622 said:

So untill the injustice of varying degrees of parental leave is addressed women cant really complain about other injustices.

- is just wrong.

Yes, South Africa swung the pendulum too far in either direction, but what's the balance point? I strongly suspect it's something close to affirmative action.

I see affirmative action as a good tool designed to work mostly on bubble cases. If two students, one black and one white, are up for the last slot in a college admissions group and both are neck-and-neck in terms of academic performance, character and ability, I don't see a problem if the nod goes to the black student.

Though years of slight modifications have changed the societal systems (distribution of wealth, education, laws etc.) for the better, they are still designed to work in a way that give certain advantages to white people. Putting a light finger on the scale occasionally can really benefit everyone involved. It's difficult to keep that finger light and occasional, but it can be done and should be done. Besides, if the ref is deciding your game for you, something is wrong with the game you're playing.

Think about lesser percentages of your taxes going to welfare or to feed prisoners.

[Optimus Prime]

amphibian;317605 said:

Why do males continue to make more money than females? We gave them the right to vote, passed a whole passel of laws, and stopped thinking of them as inferiors. Didn't we?

Despite your thinking, white privilege is a very real fact and should be included in any honest discussion of racism and the continuing disparity between "races".

Exactly. Great point Amp.

I know I've probably benefited from being white at some time in my life, growing up in the South. Racism is alive on all sides, it's a touchy issue.

[Shinrei]

Quote

Think about lesser percentages of your taxes going to welfare or to feed prisoners.

Are you suggesting that affirmative action prevents welfare and crime. Or by extension, if minorities aren't given certain advantages they are necessarily poor and criminal?????

Affirmative action just sounds like more of the philosophy of "if government doesn't fix the problem, it doesn't get fixed", which I think is absolute HS. The perceptions of the people, especially in the younger generations are changing and things will continue to get better for minorities in this country. I'm more confident that the necessary change comes from people making a difference, not government acting as referees as Amp puts it.