[Slum]

Cause, my argument only applies to that which I know: America. No country has been as historically discriminative against blacks as mine.

[Shinrei]

I'm not really arguing that affirmative action is discriminatory against me or other white people. I'm arguing that its a stupid policy which is a lame-brained way at going about equality. I view it as intellectually dishonest and government over reach. A poor fix just so politicians can say "hey look, we're doing something" is ridiculous.

[Slum]

Shinrei no Shintai;320450 said:

I'm not really arguing that affirmative action is discriminatory against me or other white people. I'm arguing that its a stupid policy which is a lame-brained way at going about equality.

Do you have a better suggestion on how to ensure equal hiring practices?

[Nequam]

Well Shin said what I was going to say pretty much, affirmative action is like treating the symptom but not the disease. (I think I said that earlier)

But no, I don't have better idea (aside from the whole education thing but it's not really a quick fix idea like affirmative action is, but more like the only permanent solution). But that doesn't mean the current one is good and certainly doesn't mean we shouldn't try to impliment other ways of helping disadvataged workers.

[Terez]

Slumgullion Spitteler;320442 said:

Cause, my argument only applies to that which I know: America. No country has been as historically discriminative against blacks as mine.

Really?

[Cause]

Yeah I would said something but I thought arguing for the position of who oppressed blacks more to be kinda counter productive. That said Im still not sure hes wrong. Black slavery followed by black discrimination in america when they were 'free' has to be at least as bad if not worse tha apartheid. Apartheid was just more recent.

[Shinrei]

You already know my answer to this.

However, if you're asking me for a government solution over the short term to prevent any potential discrimination in hiring, I don't have an answer to that. I will say that those in the generations that are now beginning to obtain power in business and in government are going to be adept at solving a lot of these problems without affirmative action's help. Just look at the following that Barack Obama has, and tell me that all of those white people who voted for him are going to turn around and be racist in their hiring practices.

[Slum]

Terez;320465 said:

Really?

OK. My argument applies to South Africa, too. My knowledge on the subject is limited to what I see here in America...


I just dislike the fact that AA is seen as discriminatory. In the narrowest of senses, I guess it is...

[Nequam]

Slumgullion Spitteler;320471 said:

OK. My argument applies to South Africa, too. My knowledge on the subject is limited to what I see here in America...


I just dislike the fact that AA is seen as discriminatory. In the narrowest of senses, I guess it is...

Is taking one job away from somone who has worked hard for the job, and giving it to someone else discriminatory? I say yes, and that is just what affirmative action is. How is that a narrow sense?

[Slum]

Nequam;320474 said:

Is taking one job away from somone who has worked hard for the job, and giving it to someone else discriminatory? I say yes, and that is just what affirmative action is. How is that a narrow sense?

Dude, your whole argument is predicated on the assumption that jobs are fairly distributed in the first place. That's false.

A measure that seeks to rectify inequality is NOT discriminatory...it's just a damn necessity.

[Macros]

but it is discriminatory
if someone gets anything over someone else because of their race/gender its descrimination, whthere its in attempt to balance the books or not. its descrimination

[Slum]

Macros;320490 said:

but it is discriminatory
if someone gets anything over someone else because of their race/gender its descrimination, whthere its in attempt to balance the books or not. its descrimination

But, if one's race has been unfairly excluded from participating in the traditional routes to the top, how can you consider them on equal footing with you?

[Giles]

its basically saying AA is not necessarily wrong, it's saying that the whole idea of it is discrimination whether rightly or wrongly, making a decision based on someones race is discrimination by definition whether it's being done to right wrongs or not.

[Terez]

So are we discussing racism, or semantics?

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Where affirmitave action programs fail is that, in general, many consider race alone. Programs that do so are discriminatory and do not address even the symptoms of the problem. The reasoning that someone needs a helping hand to "catch up" after years of being held down because of thier race does not hold water when applied to the children of millionaires.

Beyond the connections that those with money or power have the main difference is, as noted by others, quality of available education. Creating decent national standards and providing funding at national levels to revamp the system is what is needed to level the playing field. Bring the public education system to the same level as can be had privately.

[Terez]

Cause;320468 said:

Yeah I would said something but I thought arguing for the position of who oppressed blacks more to be kinda counter productive.

You mean bad for your argument? I understand what you're saying...it does seem a bit of a derail, but in reality, it's actually at the core of the issue here.

Cause said:

That said Im still not sure hes wrong.

Neither am I, really, and that has more to do with my ignorance the history of your country in comparison to my knowledge of my own country's history. Most of what I know about South Africa comes from a girl I worked with from Cape Town who was in the US for less than a year. I do know enough to say that it's too close a call to be using the strong language that Slum used when he made that statement (and I think he probably agrees now that it's been called to his attention).

Cause said:

Black slavery followed by black discrimination in america when they were 'free' has to be at least as bad if not worse tha apartheid. Apartheid was just more recent.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. South Africa has a history of slavery as well, though emancipation came sooner. I didn't find a whole lot of details on that but I'm pretty sure that the colonisers were not the slaves, so the slaves were all black, right? Or were there some other races as well? Were any of the slaves white? Who were the slave owners?

In some ways, it seems Apartheid might have been worse than the US era between emancipation and the civil rights movement, simply because the vast majority of the population (blacks) was controlled by a small white minority. I'm sure you can fill in the gaps in my knowledge though.

To those who keep stressing education...I couldn't agree more. If we continue to raise the bars of education standards and financial assistance for those who need it, then the populace continues to grow more educated, and society progresses in all ways. Win!

[Urb]

Shinrei no Shintai;320264 said:

And Urb, government already over-regulates how people live. And zoning restrictions aside, the moment the government starts TELLING me where I have to live, is the moment I move to another country.

Maybe their just doing it the wrong way? [linet]The patriot act way[/linet] (you live in the US or Japan?). And they wouldn't exactly be telling you WHERE to live, but they would make sure that only so and so many of a certain ethnic group can live there and there. You would still be able to live wherever you want, but there might be fewer houses for you to choose from. I don't think it's ever been done before, so I can't really say it would work. Personally I don't think the government is over-regulating us, as long as they do it the right way. I'd rather be safe and know that my children get a good education, than have the right to own guns, buy cheap alcohol and pay very little taxes.

EDIT: Ok, that was pretty lame (patriot act bashing). I take it back.

[Shinrei]

Well, if that works for you so be it. I prefer that the US remains a place where people are more free with their choices (and should be freer than we currently are). I believe that persons who look to the government for every aspect of their security and their lifestyle have given up much of what it means to be an individual human being- but hey, that's the way I see things.

And bash away at that heinous piece of legistlation (the patriot act) as much as you want. That's the sort of government legistlation that scares the pants off me.

[Mentalist]

Interesting thread you guys have going here]

I am a first-generation immigrant into Canada
I am a white male. My anscestors were serfs in Tsarist Russia/Austria-Hungary round the same time the Blacks' anscestors were slaves in the New world (were emancip[ated round the same time too-1860s)
Question: how do I benefit from the centuries of discrimination
Question: Must I accept this sense of "guilt" as package deal of my citizenship?

[Macros]

considering your serf background surely you should be claiming guilt recompance from anyone wealthy in the east?
[/poor attempt at humour]