[The Archivist]

Hello, all ...

I was running one of the books through my head (HoC ... I think) and I came upon a memory which left me a bit cold. Trull and Tool (is Onrack... thanks, Kud) are talking in the fragment of KE and they come upon the statues of the Hounds of Darkness.

Trull is trying to prise some information out of Tool and I think it is let slip that the Hounds of Shadow are Dessembacklis (sp), the Emperor of the first Human Empire is the Hounds in his veered form. Would people have a look around and give me an opinion. I will look up the quote and post it when I find it. Just popped into my head.

Btw... I am just picking up each of the novels and reading a few pages each night at random and seeing what ideas are spurred by a non sequential look. I will try and post anything else I spot.

*the old man shuffles his wrapped feet as he slowly ambles back into the musty stacks .... only a faint cackle reverberates off the forgiving pages of vellum, flax and papyrus*

[Mentalist]

First of all, it's Onrack, not Tool

Second of all, we are told there is a connection and that the emperor (Dissimbelackis) dissappeared before the Ritual of the Beast. "some say he.... veered"

The "Dissimbelackis is the D'ivers Hounds" idea is only implied, though there are other subtle hints throughtout the series, such as

NOK SPOILER

Spoiler

when a hound appears next to a character, the character detects a familiar "spicy" smell

Nonetheless, it remains an unconfirmed inference, not a concrete fact.

[The Archivist]

*shakes his aged head with a playful glint in his eyes* ... well, you are right ... it was Onrack not Tool... *sighs* I was working from memory ... was posting without my "tomes" handy, I see this was not was not wise of me ... As to the second point ... *assumes his best (or worst lecturing tone)* ... the words "I think" are used to denote an unfounded but personally assumed possibility in the proceeding text. Alas, I never thought it fact, lad.

My thanks for the speedy reply. And a good insight with that spoiler. Might also explain how the Hounds escaped the sword if not all of the "Emperor" was taken (just part of his soul).

Just another generally out of the box question, all. Do you think that the Hounds have any relationship to the Seven Deadly Sins or Virtues if indeed they represent a fragmented personality? And more importantly, given the conversation between Onrack and Trull, which set of Hounds is the Emperor (if he is the D'ivers Hounds)?

[The Archivist]

I found that quote .... YAY ... HoC pg. 443 (Bantam, 2002) ...

*very minor spoilers possibly ... below*





"Dessimbelackis," Onrack whispered. "The founder of the human First Empire. long vanished by the time of the unleashing of the Beast Ritual. It was believed he had ... veered."
"D'ivers?" (Trull)
"Aye." (Onrack)
"And the Beasts numbered?" (Trull)
"Seven." (Onrack)

[Mentalist]

Trust me when I say, numerous threads exist that discussa and examine the relationships between the Hounds of Shadow, The Degaroth and Dissimbelackis
We all hope (fervently) that more answers will be forthcoming in the next books.

[The Archivist]

Wonderful. Righto. Off to find them. *cheery wave*

[Zanth13]

Interesting...


I havent seen that quote on the forum before...and I guess I forgot reading it...

so the Emporer (if he still lives) is a 7 bodied Diver...

I dont buy that its the hounds... from what we know of now (imo) the beast are each seperate creatures...but maybe... its not that farfetched of an idea...

[Mentalist]

Zanth13;307111 said:

Interesting...


I havent seen that quote on the forum before...and I guess I forgot reading it...

so the Emporer (if he still lives) is a 7 bodied Diver...

I dont buy that its the hounds... from what we know of now (imo) the beast are each seperate creatures...but maybe... its not that farfetched of an idea...

mules?

[Zanth13]

kud13;307123 said:

mules?

Genius... so thats where all that Donkeygoth talk came from...

Zanth, looks like I missed the bus on that one...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

The Archivist;307087 said:

I found that quote .... YAY ... HoC pg. 443 (Bantam, 2002) ...

*very minor spoilers possibly ... below*





"Dessimbelackis," Onrack whispered. "The founder of the human First Empire. long vanished by the time of the unleashing of the Beast Ritual. It was believed he had ... veered."
"D'ivers?" (Trull)
"Aye." (Onrack)
"And the Beasts numbered?" (Trull)
"Seven." (Onrack)

It's unlikely Dessi is the 7 Hounds of Shadow because the Edur were able to command them, and so far as we know they have no connection with the First Emp.

One thing's for sure- whoever Dessi is, it has something to do with the hounds, and 7C.

[VampireGoat]

its a nice idea that dessi is the hounds and become enslaved to shadow after a failed attempt at the throne of shadow but there is heavy evidence.

The fact that dessi turned into a d'ivers which split into 7 doesn't prove much. The Pack had a total of 7, as did Dejim, the Deragoth also number at 7 but are way to old to be a d'ivers.

Then theres gardens info on the hounds which severs to completely shatter the very notion, what with info on how the hounds themselves bred and a sort of family tree is laid out. There is also the fact that the hounds seem to display individual personalities but that could be a result of being veered so long the different bodies have seperated mentally as well as physically. Of course gardens info is proving more and more shaky as the series goes on.

however as far as im concerned gotm info is law until stated otherwise, ToH prolouge suggests is going back to some of the details mentioned in Gotm so I personally am hoping all the details it gave us arn't null and void

Just thinking back to DHG, there is a gateway into shadow that was considered quite a viable pathway for gaining the shadow throne on 7C, at least thats how it seemed potrayed to me with the path of hands and all. Could be Dessi walked this years before in hound form and made a pass at the throne, but as I said earlier, until the gotm hound details are directly voided, Im sticking with Dessi not being the hounds

[Abyss]

I was totally down with this theory until someone noted a quote in HoC where Onrack (i think) mentions that the Tlan Imass had encountered the HoS BEFORE the end of the human First Empire.

Now, it could be an instance of fuzzy timelines, because i REALLY liked my theory that Dessiewhacky tried to take on deragoth as his d'ivers form, powered the ritual with a chunk of Shadow and screwed up, leaving himself as seven individual Hounds, and it was a even bigger screw uo of this same ritual that ultimately tanked the human FE, but the timing doesn't quite seem to line up.


- Abyss, dog-gone-it!

[Coco with marshmallows]

yeah, but the timeline is not important:rolleyes:

seriously, the timeline is the one thing that gets right on my tits in this series.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Abyss;307705 said:

I was totally down with this theory until someone noted a quote in HoC where Onrack (i think) mentions that the Tlan Imass had encountered the HoS BEFORE the end of the human First Empire.

Now, it could be an instance of fuzzy timelines, because i REALLY liked my theory that Dessiewhacky tried to take on deragoth as his d'ivers form, powered the ritual with a chunk of Shadow and screwed up, leaving himself as seven individual Hounds, and it was a even bigger screw uo of this same ritual that ultimately tanked the human FE, but the timing doesn't quite seem to line up.


- Abyss, dog-gone-it!

i believe you are correct, the t'lan visited the human FE twice, first time they saw the hounds of shadow, second time they killed off all the shapeshifters.

but dessi did dissapear before the ritual, how long before is what makes the difference. somehow i don't think that dessi is the hounds of shadow tho. if he's anyone, its the deragoth. they had some nefarious deal and im thinking soul-shifting was involved

[SiriusL]

Sinisdar Toste;309211 said:

i believe you are correct, the t'lan visited the human FE twice, first time they saw the hounds of shadow, second time they killed off all the shapeshifters.

but dessi did dissapear before the ritual, how long before is what makes the difference. somehow i don't think that dessi is the hounds of shadow tho. if he's anyone, its the deragoth. they had some nefarious deal and im thinking soul-shifting was involved

The timeline is not important. But SE went to specific lengths to show that Onrack was talking about the Imass FE, not the human FE. Why else would he have Trull ask Onrack which FE he meant? Surely it's important.

Besides, VampireGoat above pointed out that the Hounds of Shadow have specific familial relationships (mother, father, son, daughter, etc.). I find it more likely that this is a red herring, and that Dessimbelackis never veered--he just struck a bargain with the Deragoth and some of them hung out with him. Um...so to speak.

[The Archivist]

Consider the following:
1) We are dealing with a devious (wonderful but devious) author.

2) This could be a red herring

3) Read the following text and remember, both Trull and Onrack are fishing for info and avoiding direct answers.

4) What do we know about Dessimbalackis? How old is he?

"Trull smiled oddly, then asked, "The First Human Empire or yours?"

"I know little of the First Human Empire. We were drawn into its heart but once, Trull Sengar in answer to the the chaos of the Soultaken and D'ivers. The Hounds made no appearance during that slaughter."

then....

"If they (the Hounds) are but reflections, then there must be Hounds of Darkness, from which they were torn," Onrack persisted. Yet there is no knowledge of such..." The T'lan Imass suddenly fell silent.

Trull laughed. "It seems you know more of the Human First Empire then you first indicated."

Two things here ... Onrack is being circumspect about what he knows and Trull is leading him to a revelation.

I think that there is something very significant here and am still pondering it. But the possibility the Imass mistook one of the sets of Hounds for the other would definately mess with any timeline anyway. I suggest anyone interested goes and reads the whole conversation between the two again. Hehe ...

*the mad cackle of the aged Archivists wafts out of his moldy stack*

[D'rek]

Why did you make two threads on this.....

Anyways, Dessi is most frequently referenced in relation to the Deragoth, not the Hounds, and by characters who are more knowledgeable of the human-FE's issues then Onrack.

Now just to throw enormous monkey-bones in the theories people have in their heads, I'd like to remind everyone of the shadowy master that lead the Hounds during the time of the human FE, as recalled by Taralack Veed whilst he was remembering a Gral legend in RG. Oh, yes.

[The Archivist]

Was my boo boo .... did not realize that it had already been ongoing. And the discussion got to be on going in both spots. *sighs*

[Aptorian]

A said:

Now just to throw enormous monkey-bones in the theories people have in their heads, I'd like to remind everyone of the shadowy master that lead the Hounds during the time of the human FE, as recalled by Taralack Veed whilst he was remembering a Gral legend in RG. Oh, yes.

Was that hounds or deragoth?

[Mentalist]

Don't think it says specifically, but we're supposed to think they're Shadow hounds..
(too sleepy to actually look it up)