[Carnifex]

Anyone else feel pity for the Edur? They've been screwed for ages now. Their knowledge of their history (and thus their mythology) is all screwed up. They worship Scabandari as Father Shadow when he's at least one of the parties responsible for breaking KE.

Most of them believe that Silchas Ruin betrayed Scabandari, making Scab into a tragic, heroic figure when he came across as a complete bastard in the prologue.

Sure the Tiste miss Mother Dark, but the Edur had their home warren shattered ages ago and haven't been able to find their way back to Shadow.

They're fundamentally naive about the modern world and get sucked into Letheras and thus destroyed.

Hannan Mosag, who could've been an effective (if not a "good") leader of the Edur, screws up and the Edur end up with a completely ineffective, insane unkillable king.

Random characters swipe parts of their home warren to use for their own nefarious purposes, taking away even more of KE from the Edur.

The modern version of Shadow is run by two usurpers who display no pity or respect for the Edur.

Their two possible saviors (Mosag and Trull) die pointless and arbitrarily in RG.

They just can't get a break in either historical or modern times. Sure, there are certainly "bad" individual Edur:

The Overseer really went feral at the end of RG.

Tomad Sengar flipped out a bit (affected by the CG?) and depopulated an island, placing the "freed" Edur in Letherii prisons.

Overall, however, they've stayed out of the way and tried to find their way back home. Instead, they're destroyed as a culture and attacked by Silchas Ruin, who's an implacable enemy.

Then again, I don't think Silchas is nearly as powerful as he's talked up to be, but that's another topic...

[Quick~]

pretty much agree with Briar, the Andii as a whole seem a sadder race than the Edur, though the Sengars were a tragic family D:

I don't really get why this thread is in TtH though and not RG.

[Paleman]

To be honest, apart from Trull and Fear I don't feel anything for the Edur. A bunch of total Nazis if you ask me.

[Trull's son]

well, why pity the andii? ok, so there all sad about Anomander Rake screwin off after their Mother Dark abandons them. Rake left it all behind him (or so it seems) by drowning his sorrows in Starvald Demelain. why can't the rest?

[Optimus Prime]

It's sad what happened to the Edur, but they kinda brought it on themselves. Extreme measures often reap extreme consequences.

The Andii are sad too, but also pathetic. They need to suck it up and stop being so emo and start kicking ass.

The Liosan are just wack job isolationists.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

I actually think the irony is that the Liosan are the best off in this case. They may be virtually leaderless, but that has kept them out of trouble hasn't it?

No Scabby, Ruin, or Rake to take you to battle and die.

[Optimus Prime]

Adjutant Stormy;304700 said:

I actually think the irony is that the Liosan are the best off in this case. They may be virtually leaderless, but that has kept them out of trouble hasn't it?

No Scabby, Ruin, or Rake to take you to battle and die.

That we know of. The Liosan are in trouble because there are foreign powers at play within their "religion". They also don't seem to understand that Osric doesn't give two shits about them.

My opinion? The leaders of the Liosan know what's going on and are controlling the populace with these misguided ideas. I don't know if it's the CG and another one of his proxies, but I'm hoping ICE will bring them into the light.

[Tarr]

Just a thought the toblaki descendants are also ignorant of their origins, have no actual god (that we know of) so are pretty open to being ursurped and wherever we here about their descendant's they are being either conquered or dying off.

Shouldn't they be the ones you feel sorry for not the edur?

Being honest the edur aren't exactly saints, just listen to udinass's tale about the bloodwood/blackwood (don't know which one) tree for evidence of this (or the rest of his commentaries on the edur). And although trull seemed to be a nice guy he also took part in the slavery of many indebted who were forced to head into edur land against there own will, which is something people seem to forget when they mourn him.

[Optimus Prime]

But what race is "good"?

Humans...uh hell no. They are always killing each other, enslaving each other, and doing anything they can to help themselves and not others.
Forkrul Assail? No. They believe in "balance" and will do anything to keep it, even if it means slaughtering civilizations.
Eleint? No. They are so powerful most "mortals" are beneath their notice.

I could go on, but that's what is great about SE. There really isn't one race/people/group that deserves the label "good".

You can find something to pity in all of them. The Edur are just sad because they were basically obliterated because they became the one thing they hated most: Letherii.

[Tarr]

What about the eres? after all they are innocent according to bottle!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Xander;304778 said:

But what race is "good"?

Humans...uh hell no. They are always killing each other, enslaving each other, and doing anything they can to help themselves and not others.
Forkrul Assail? No. They believe in "balance" and will do anything to keep it, even if it means slaughtering civilizations.
Eleint? No. They are so powerful most "mortals" are beneath their notice.

I could go on, but that's what is great about SE. There really isn't one race/people/group that deserves the label "good".

You can find something to pity in all of them. The Edur are just sad because they were basically obliterated because they became the one thing they hated most: Letherii.

That's true, but there are races who are... less offensive than others. The Andii, for example, haven't commited that many atrocities if any. And apart from the Tyrants, the Jaghut were ok.

I stll don't really like the Edur. Not enough of them were repentant or guilty about the nasty things they did while seafaring.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

No pity, mwahahaha.

The only regrets I see come from when their backsides are handed to them on a plate, or in realisation they didn't conquer Lether as fully as they'd like. I understand that victors seldom regret, but I wouldn't mind if all their trees fell on them :angel:

Pity the emos. And hope they vote to off Clip. :folken:

[Optimus Prime]

Ain said:

That's true, but there are races who are... less offensive than others. The Andii, for example, haven't commited that many atrocities if any. And apart from the Tyrants, the Jaghut were ok.

I stll don't really like the Edur. Not enough of them were repentant or guilty about the nasty things they did while seafaring.

But the Andii have done wrong....by being so apathetic (until Rake decides to involve them in causes) they've been guilty of being bystanders. Also, we don't know the entire story of the Civil Wars between the Tiste Races....I suspect none are innocent of crimes.

The Jaghut were aloof as well, and were too slow to react to the threat of their own Tyrants. Also, they treated Imass like insects...not even worthy of notice.....

[Nequam]

Tarr;304804 said:

What about the eres? after all they are innocent according to bottle!

OH YEAH, WELL BOTTLE CAN SUCK MY !!

Phew. What I think Bottle meant was the Eres'al herself. She is the last inoccent player in all this god war business. The eres race itself...well I (for reasons I don't really know) always pictured them like cavemen. They aren't developed enough to have huge wars and stuff. So anything "bad" they did was probably trivial anyway, but I'm sure they would do "bad" things too.


EDIT:
You know what, I think we aren't being open-minded enough about this. Saying a race is bad or good would make as much sense as me saying all asians are good with computers and math. You can't label a whole race anything in these books. Because they are just as diverse as the races in our world.

Now, like the original poster said, you can have pity for a race. Like I have pity for Africans and the slavery they were put into. (hmm, I guess it's not a whole race actually)
And yeah, I do feel pity for the Edur.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Xander;305124 said:

But the Andii have done wrong....by being so apathetic (until Rake decides to involve them in causes) they've been guilty of being bystanders. Also, we don't know the entire story of the Civil Wars between the Tiste Races....I suspect none are innocent of crimes.

The Jaghut were aloof as well, and were too slow to react to the threat of their own Tyrants. Also, they treated Imass like insects...not even worthy of notice.....

Yes, but being bystanders and aloof doesn't cause death and destruction. Not directly. By death and destruction I mean stuff like what the Edur did.

[Optimus Prime]

Ain said:

Yes, but being bystanders and aloof doesn't cause death and destruction. Not directly. By death and destruction I mean stuff like what the Edur did.

I understand what you're saying, but we don't really know the whole, TRUE version of the Andii history yet....methinks there's more to it than the whole "victim" storyline we've gotten thus far.

[Blacksox]

I for one don't feel sorry for the Andii. In my book they are a bunch of patheteic whiners that after a million years are still crying because thier mommy does not love them.

It's like get over your emo selves already and suck it up!

[Optimus Prime]

Well that's the point I'm trying to drive home. There's got to be more to the Andii's "whining" than just "boo hoo, our mother betrayed us".

The Edur were just barbaric fascists who decided to be the aggressor instead of being attacked....

[Osseric's mortal sword]

What about the T'lan Imass? As far as I can recollect they have always been portrayed as good apart from a few
that have been corrupted by the CG and that's not really their fault. After all that was the whole purpose of their
vow to protect the younger species from the tyranny of other races, right? They took millenia of torment upon
themselves, that seems pretty altruistic as a race to me.

[Giles]

errrmmm. they kind of embarked on mass genocide against the jaghut i dont think they can be classed as "good" somehow...