[Optimus Prime]

Osseric said:

What about the T'lan Imass? As far as I can recollect they have always been portrayed as good apart from a few
that have been corrupted by the CG and that's not really their fault. After all that was the whole purpose of their
vow to protect the younger species from the tyranny of other races, right? They took millenia of torment upon
themselves, that seems pretty altruistic as a race to me.

Baudin's right. The T'lan Imass started out as victims but let your idea of vengeance and protection ruin them as a people. I feel sorry for them and their millenia long undead existence, but they did it to themselves.

[Osseric's mortal sword]

Yes but for the greater good!! Okay, okay your probably right, come to think of it they're not quite so good, but individually they always seem nice guys, once you get over they're undead.

[Optimus Prime]

There aren't any "good" or "bad" races is my point. There's some of each in every group. The Imass are no different from the Jaghut in that way. Raest? Not so good. Ganath? Not so bad.

It's like Mael tells Bugg at the end of MT. Human's are not the "solution" or whatever to the world's problems. They're just another "failed" experiment in a way, LOL.

[Osseric's mortal sword]

Did I miss something? I thought Mael was Bugg but here you seem to be talking about two seperate characters, is he bipolar? That would explain a lot!

[Giles]

that quote sounds like he meant bugg to tehol, but i could be wrong who knows the inner workings of xanders mind...

[Mentalist]

At teh very least, the Andii demolished an entire Warren that the CG was creating--we don't know who lived there, but whomever they were, they were probably all killed disregarding that they havent done anything wong (yet)

Edur deserve pity, because they were destroyed spiritually, almost entirely assimilated by their worst enemies.

liosan are stuck up twits that will probably see their entire, neat, self-centered world come down crashing around them, as punishment for tehir pride "hopes*

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

If the CG was in the midst of creating the warren, why would there already be people living there? I would think it an empty place which he could then populate with his followers if he cared to.

The Edur did get a pretty raw deal, but it's one they were deserving of in the first place. Many of thier problems can be traced back to Scabandari's actions and the response from Mael and Gothos.

Of the Liosans we've met, three were arrogant and ignorant, L'oric was fairly well grounded. If the ones Trull met are typical of the race, they are likely in for a downfall. Ignorance and arrogance adding up to death or disaster is pretty common throughout the series.

[Optimus Prime]

Sorry guys, I meant Bugg to Tehol...stupid late night posting....I deserve that

@Kud---The Edur deserve pity?!?! They tried to annihilate the Letherii just like they accused the Letherii of doing to them. They became what they hated most, greedy, lazy hate mongers.

[Mentalist]

need I remind you that the Letherii mages sent out their genocide-waves at the Edur settlements first?

[Optimus Prime]

kud13;306382 said:

need I remind you that the Letherii mages sent out their genocide-waves at the Edur settlements first?

So before that...the Edur were isolationist? Perhaps, but they were by no means a benevolent people. Remember, the Edur were planning on wiping the Letherii out after Rhulad took over.

The Letherii and Edur both earned their fates. I felt pity only for the young.

[blackzoid]

"The Letherii and Edur both earned their fates. I felt pity only for the young"

Wow, Xander. Not to flame you too hard, but it seems as if you have read all 7 of Steve's books and not grasped one of his major points..the idea of compassion. Wasn't Reaper's Gale all about this, at its core?

[Carnifex]

The Edur get blamed for bad stuff, true, but is it the fault of the individuals? Scabandari betrayed Ruin. While the Edur massacred the Andii at the same time, were they individually culpable or just getting bullied by Scabandari?

Ditto with Rhulad. The Edur listened to him, but they knew he was ineffective and several tried to work around him. A few Edur have individually done bad things (Tomad and the Overseer come to mind), but the bulk of them just do whatever their current leader tells them to, whether it's Scabandari, Rhulad, or the Warlock King.

I'm not saying that this absolves them of individual responsibility- they always have the ability to say no as Trull did. It's just a shame that over and over again they get screwed because the actions of their leaders. I doubt that the general Edur populace acted to shatter KE, but they all lost their home because of the actions of a few, including the leader they revere above all others.

Do you think the Edur people were aware of Scabandari's role in destroying KE? Or Hannan Mosag's plan to try to cheat the CG?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

The Edur were bloody sheep-always following someone else, even when that someone was an insane, god-cursed zombie. That's why we all liked Trull, i think- he wasn't willing to just believe things straight away and he questioned everything. :angel:

[Tiger_sword]

Makes you wonder what might have happened had Hannan Mosag's plan actually worked i.e. he got the sword. Would he actually have been able to cheat the cg? I believe that it was the cg's plan for Rhulad to get the sword all along

[Aptorian]

Udinass makes a different theory.

It probably was actually ment for the warlock king, since he'd had the vision/been told where it was, but Udinass doesn't think it would have mattered who got the sword, what was important was the culture. It was the fact that the Edur were easily manipulated that the CG needed. That's why he didn't just give the sword to a letherii and gained a ready made empire.

One can only wonder what had happened if Trull or Fear had got the sword. They were both stronger chararcters than Rhulad.

[Tiger_sword]

So the same thing may have happened but with the warlock king in Rhulad place. Some might say that that could have been worse. Though his knowledge of KE may have taken them in a different direction i.e. not invaded Lether

[Cougar]

Aptorian;307250 said:

It probably was actually ment for the warlock king, since he'd had the vision/been told where it was, but Udinass doesn't think it would have mattered who got the sword, what was important was the culture. It was the fact that the Edur were easily manipulated that the CG needed. That's why he didn't just give the sword to a letherii and gained a ready made empire.

True, and also the same basis for some peoples theory that the Liosan are ripe for corruption by the crippled god

[Osseric's mortal sword]

Yes but the Liosan already seem to be deeply commited to an ascendant. As far as I can tell, Osseric? I seem to remember something about some one pretending to be him but it definitely was not the CG

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Briar King;309810 said:

I wonder if we will see Hanna Mosag's plan come to allie all the Tiste will still happen since he met his fate? Will someone else might know of his plan to unite them, I don't remember the details if he talked to someone else or not.

Yeah, he wanted the Andii and Liosan to unite with the Edur, and he in fact pledged the Edur to his "cause." Pffft..... as if the other Tiste's would agree to that. One homicidal family, the Tiste are.

[Osseric's mortal sword]

The Andii just couldn't be bothered to join an alliance and the Liosan would try and kill the other two races as they are impure. I wonder if Hanan Mosag had actually met a single Andii or Liosan when he came up this plan?