[Bauchelain the Evil]

Reiko;323062 said:

Im not sure if theres ever been much said on the difference between soletaken and d'ivers.
Is a D'ivers just a more powerful soletaken? or something completely different....

I have always thaught that the difference was that D'ivers coul change in more same animals and Soltaken only one.I think that's what it means when SE says D'ivers are "a higher order of shapeshifting"

[D'rek]

Bauchelain the Evil;323227 said:

I have always thaught that the difference was that D'ivers coul change in more same animals and Soltaken only one.I think that's what it means when SE says D'ivers are "a higher order of shapeshifting"

[sarcasm] congratulations for figuring that out before everyone else [/sarcasm]

please read the whole thread next time and realize that we all know what the core difference between d'ivers and soletaken is, but that we were extrapolating it beyond that core difference into a sceptical discussion of something more complex.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

[painful expression] your words hurt me [/painful expression]

I just give an obvious answer to an obvious question. And btw what is there to discuss? That's the only difference. A type of shapeshifters aren't more powerful than the others though number would make the difference

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Would those that are infected by Soletaken and then turned into Soletaken be more/less powerful? One for da record....

[Reiko]

Bauchelain the Evil;323586 said:

[painful expression] your words hurt me [/painful expression]

I just give an obvious answer to an obvious question. And btw what is there to discuss? That's the only difference. A type of shapeshifters aren't more powerful than the others though number would make the difference

Obvious? SE has said many times that soletaken and D'ivers are related somehow. I just want to know what the difference is BETWEEN them. I know that Di'ivers have multiple forms (freaking duhhhhhh)
I want to know what is the difference!
Why can some only change form into one and some can make several.
or how Gryllen ( it is Gryllen that turns into rats yeah?) can towards the end have thousands of rats.

Can only Di'ivers gain power extremely quickly or can soletaken too?

....i think i should make a thread of this actually

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Ain said:

Would those that are infected by Soletaken and then turned into Soletaken be more/less powerful? One for da record....

By this I assume you're referring to when Mappo gets bitten and talks about it as a "disease"... he's actually saying it's like poison and will drive you mad and to death, as opposed to saying it morphs you.

Im unaware of any instances in any of the books where a soletaken or d'iver has been created by being bitten by another, werewolf style.

[Aptorian]

Reiko;324895 said:

Obvious? SE has said many times that soletaken and D'ivers are related somehow. I just want to know what the difference is BETWEEN them. I know that Di'ivers have multiple forms (freaking duhhhhhh)
I want to know what is the difference!
Why can some only change form into one and some can make several.
or how Gryllen ( it is Gryllen that turns into rats yeah?) can towards the end have thousands of rats.

Can only Di'ivers gain power extremely quickly or can soletaken too?

....i think i should make a thread of this actually

There have been made dozens of threads on the subject and we still know next to nothing. The info we have from Dejim and the soletaken/D'ivers from DG are our primary sources of information.

[Illuyankas]

@TT: They actually state that it won't change you too.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Thelomen Toblerone;324896 said:

By this I assume you're referring to when Mappo gets bitten and talks about it as a "disease"... he's actually saying it's like poison and will drive you mad and to death, as opposed to saying it morphs you.

Im unaware of any instances in any of the books where a soletaken or d'iver has been created by being bitten by another, werewolf style.

Yes, it was that.

And I suppose it doesn't happen... Kulp said that shapeshifters are born.

[Aptorian]

Born or made...

[Danyah]

Spoiler

Most of the draconian shapeshifters drank the blood/had sex of/with Tiam to become what they are.

The caravan guard in MoI got a drink from the high priest that turned him into a shapeshifting bird.

The D'ivers all seem to be related to the first empire. The soletaken seem to be independent from that matter. D'ivers tend to get mad and bloodthirsty while the soletaken (the imass, the tiste,...) seem to remain somewhat stable.

[eekwibble]

It doesn't help that so far we haven't had a PoV from a D'ivers in any of the books. In fact Gryllen is the closest we've got so far to an engaging D'ivers character.
I don't have a copy of DG (the fourth of the series I gave away:() so can anyone find a quote about Gryllen's appearance/creed that can back up Danyah's theory about D'ivers=1st Empire?

Back on topic; I think 'wolf' is looking favourite but I'm holding out for something far more badass (or the whole 7 MoS thing).

[Aptorian]

Actually we had Dejim in BH, got lots of info from him.

[Danyah]

Maybe it was in HoC, when Karsa had a meeting with the wolf-d'ivers, not too sure.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Danyah;325308 said:

Maybe it was in HoC, when Karsa had a meeting with the wolf-d'ivers, not too sure.

No. I read HoC yesterday. Ryllandaras just complimented him and told him some cryptic stuff about his impending meeting with our favourite Jhag.

[OtataralDragon]

eekwibble;325303 said:

I don't have a copy of DG (the fourth of the series I gave away:() so can anyone find a quote about Gryllen's appearance/creed that can back up Danyah's theory about D'ivers=1st Empire?

I just re-read Gryllen's meeting with Heboric, Kulp and Felisin, and found nothing there about his origins.

However, there's a passage earlier in the book where those three are in that ancient city in Raraku, which suggests D'ivers are much older than that.

DHG, chapter 12, p. 516-17 pb:

"Soletaken and D'ivers," the ex-priest said. "The ritual unleashed powers that ran wild. Like a plague, shapeshifting claimed thousands, unwelcomed, no initiation - many went mad. Death filled the city, every street, every house. Families were torn apart by their own." He shook himself. "All within but a handful of hours."

Kulp's eyes fixed on another figure, almost lost in the midst of a pile of mineralized corpses. "Not just Soletaken and D'ivers..."

[....]

"They took losses here."

"Oh, that they did," Heboric said. "Appalling losses. There is a bond between the T'lan Imass and Soletaken and D'ivers, a mysterious kinship that was unsuspected by the dwellers of this city - though they claimed for themselves the proud title of First Empire. That would have irritated the T'lan Imass - assuming such creatures can feel irritation - to have so boldly assumed a title that rightly belonged to them. Yet what drew them here was the ritual, and the need to set things right."


Heboric claims there's a bond between Imass, Soletaken and D'ivers - yet afaik, we've never seen a D'ivers older than the (human) FE and their Ritual. So, theory time. Perhaps the T'lan Imass judged D'ivers inherently evil, and made it their business to kill every one they came across? Just like they did with the Jaghut. The Imass bonecasters all seem to be Soletaken - maybe they see D'ivers as a perversion of something holy. Or maybe they just know from experience that D'ivers tend to be insane and insanely dangerous. Perhaps there had been a similar ritual long ago, when the Imass were still living, with disastrous results? Perhaps it was finding some kind of record of that ancient ritual that gave the humans of the FE the idea to try it themselves...

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I saw the link as a combination of things... First Empire using that name when the Imass, as we know, claim that as their title...

I also wondered at the warren used - and I think as has been pointed out elsewhere that if the shapeshifters are now under the Beast Throne's heel, and the most likely candidate for Imass Worship is now the Beast Throne, that just seems to me a link on a basic mentality level if nothing else.

Or another way of looking at it, around that time, outside of Dragons, who else was a shapeshifter? Just the bonecasters, who are capable of more than veering. I don't think Gryllen could do more than turn into rats... Not that he needed to mind you >.>

[Coen]

I don't believe Quick Ben has a shapeshifter form.

I believe that because Quick has (what was it again?) 9? souls in him and also the memories of them, he's called shapeshifter because of that.

The real shapeshifting that took place is Quick taking 9? souls into him. So those souls have all a different but shared body now.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Coen;338430 said:

I don't believe Quick Ben has a shapeshifter form.

I believe that because Quick has (what was it again?) 9? souls in him and also the memories of them, he's called shapeshifter because of that.

The real shapeshifting that took place is Quick taking 9? souls into him. So those souls have all a different but shared body now.

I could have sworn one of them was a Soletaken.....

[Aptorian]

Coen;338430 said:

I don't believe Quick Ben has a shapeshifter form.

I believe that because Quick has (what was it again?) 9? souls in him and also the memories of them, he's called shapeshifter because of that.

The real shapeshifting that took place is Quick taking 9? souls into him. So those souls have all a different but shared body now.

Sorry Coen, but there's a couple of remarks in RG that confirms that QB indeed is a soletaken. We still haven't seen his soletaken form though, we might never.