[Ammanas]

I've always had this uneasy feeling that there was something strange about the animosity between Laseen and ST. Here's why:

1)In NOK, prior to the showdown, ST's sending tells Tays, "Anyone upstairs is a participant." During the showdown, Tays and co. are downstairs and ST's presence is described as "an overwhelming sense of pressure and a gravid deadly presence too large to grant her notice. A droplet of blood fell from Tays's nose." Sounds similar to what Paran experienced when Rake found him on the plains. The point being, a warren was opened, Rashan probably.

2) After the showdown, Tays goes upstairs and notes reddish dust on the floor. Well, it couldn't have been there when ST was, otherwise his warren wouldn't have worked.

1)At the beginning of GoTM, Lorn basically figures out the Rope's scheme within the first 30 pages. The pair who started the Malazan Empire couldn't be so careless unless ascension is a path to stupidity.

2) If ST/Cot wanted Laseen dead so badly, then it would have been most expedient to send the then seven Hounds after her. Who would have stopped them? Lorn? The Claw? Bah..both would have been dogfood in under ten seconds. Tays--not a chance against all seven. Or why bother with all that--ST appears in Malaz City without any hesitation--the Rope could surely do the same, appear wherever Laseen is and kill her.

3) Some would argue that sending the Hounds after her would have created a war against the Shadow realm or at least focused unwanted attention on it. Maybe but the fact that ST/COT were Kell/Dancer is a really, really poorly kept secret. In any event, the Rope killing her without any Hound caused collateral damage would remove the attention factor.

To make a long post just a bit longer--my conclusion/guess is ST and COT were already ascendants before the showdown--otherwise I don't see how COT in particular could have survived the fall. There was no chance they wouldn't survive the confrontation. My final guess is they knew ascension meant losing the Malazan throne but didn't want Laseen to be Empress. Maybe they thought Tays would take her out and that's why ST proclaims his hatred for Tays at the end of BH.

[L'oric]

"2) After the showdown, Tays goes upstairs and notes reddish dust on the floor. Well, it couldn't have been there when ST was, otherwise his warren wouldn't have worked."

This is pretty interesting when combined with the warren being opened and giving Tay a nosebleed. What if it were an elder warren that was opened? We really have no idea what warrens ST or Dancer were capable of.

I do not think that ST and Cot wanted to keep control of the Empire. They seemed to want a way to assail the Azath and used the convergence to get inside.

Some notes
-I remember something in GotM that because Cotillion through Apsalar killed Paran then other Ascendants became free to meddle as much as they wanted. Which is how they got Paran away fro Hood's gate.

-I think its entirely possible that both Kellanved and Dancer had already Ascended and had yet to become rulers of the gateway to shadow.

-It would make sense that they would not want to kill Laseen after they had ascended for fear of what the other ascendants would be able to manipulate because of their actions.


In the end I see ST and Cot as characters that will always have a trump card stashed away by SE.

PS I forgot to talk about the animosity that might exist between Laseen and ST and I really do not see much of it except for in GotM. He seems to be furious with the horrible state she has taken his empire than anything else. Somehow I think Laseen is going to come out of the whole series as less the idiotic despot she has appeared to be so far.

[Optimus Prime]

I'd say there is a good chance Kellanved and Dancer had ascended before they "died". I think it is just other characters in the series' assumption that they became the rulers of Shadow and ascended at the same time.

Ascension is by no means an exact science in this universe. Even the "experts" in the world don't really understand it, so it's not a far stretch to think that Kel and Dancer were already Ascendants prior to their rise to the rulership of Shadow.

I thought it was generally an accepted theory that ST and Cot didn't directly go after the Empress because it would invite other Ascendants/Gods attention down on them. Also, it's not really their style to do things out in the open like that. ST, like QB, prefers subterfuge to direct combat unless absolutely necessary.

[Zanth13]

I likey that idea...

So Cot and Shadowthrone where already ascended and the whole ruse on the Malaz isle during the shadow moon was just a way to attain godhood.

It makes logical since taking into account the time they spent inside an Azath and the benefits that can cause.

Also we know from Coltain that leadership is another way to get to ascension (or at least on the path)

So yes I think it is very plausible

[Aptorian]

Okay I'm going to answer these points first, then I'm going to point out a two big oversights people in this thread are making

Ammanas;301184 said:

I've always had this uneasy feeling that there was something strange about the animosity between Laseen and ST. Here's why:

1)In NOK, prior to the showdown, ST's sending tells Tays, "Anyone upstairs is a participant." During the showdown, Tays and co. are downstairs and ST's presence is described as "an overwhelming sense of pressure and a gravid deadly presence too large to grant her notice. A droplet of blood fell from Tays's nose." Sounds similar to what Paran experienced when Rake found him on the plains. The point being, a warren was opened, Rashan probably.

2) After the showdown, Tays goes upstairs and notes reddish dust on the floor. Well, it couldn't have been there when ST was, otherwise his warren wouldn't have worked.

I'm sorry but I don't remember the size of the keep and whether they were inside one of the towers. It's not unlikely that on the above floor there was several rooms. Not all of these were packed with o-dust.

As long as ST had some distance to the stuff and he didn't throw sorcery into the room, he could had been as menacing as possible.

Ammanas;301184 said:

1)At the beginning of GoTM, Lorn basically figures out the Rope's scheme within the first 30 pages. The pair who started the Malazan Empire couldn't be so careless unless ascension is a path to stupidity.

Lorn has two things going for her - paranoia and smarts. It's obvious that the slaughter is a cover-up, Lorn and Parans search from there is detective work, trying to figure out why and if someone was taken. That's who they track. You also have to remember that between the slaughter on the island and the Battle at Pale it's been 2 years.

Ammanas;301184 said:

2) If ST/Cot wanted Laseen dead so badly, then it would have been most expedient to send the then seven Hounds after her. Who would have stopped them? Lorn? The Claw? Bah..both would have been dogfood in under ten seconds. Tays--not a chance against all seven. Or why bother with all that--ST appears in Malaz City without any hesitation--the Rope could surely do the same, appear wherever Laseen is and kill her.

I'll answer this below.

Ammanas;301184 said:

3) Some would argue that sending the Hounds after her would have created a war against the Shadow realm or at least focused unwanted attention on it. Maybe but the fact that ST/COT were Kell/Dancer is a really, really poorly kept secret. In any event, the Rope killing her without any Hound caused collateral damage would remove the attention factor.

It's been ten years since they ascended in GotM. Nobody knew who they were before they showed their hand and made a play for Darujistan and 7C.

Ammanas;301184 said:

To make a long post just a bit longer--my conclusion/guess is ST and COT were already ascendants before the showdown--otherwise I don't see how COT in particular could have survived the fall. There was no chance they wouldn't survive the confrontation. My final guess is they knew ascension meant losing the Malazan throne but didn't want Laseen to be Empress. Maybe they thought Tays would take her out and that's why ST proclaims his hatred for Tays at the end of BH.

Ok. So now I add my two points that's been overlooked.

A) Kel and Dancer could be ascendant but it's unlikley and it would sort of defy the story we get in NoK. They used the Shadow Moon and their access to the Azath to gain ascendancy and take the Shadowthrone.

Ascending isn't just something you do and apparently they'd been planning it for decades. Why turn ascendant and draw attention to yourself, when you can wait and both ascend and take the aspect of shadow in one draw?

There's an explanation made about ST and Cots and their game with Sorry in one of the later books, perhaps it's DG, perhaps HoC, I don't remember.

They claim that Cots possession of Sorry wasn't ment to take out the empress or infiltrate her operations. Rather Sorry was supposed to have accompanied the Host and Broods forces into the Panion Domin, where she would had been able to affect the developments.

If this is true, you have to wonder why Shadow didn't act in other ways during the Panion War.

Anyway that's the explanation as to why Shadow didn't destroy the empress as revenge. I guess it's a retcon of GotMs events because GotM wasn't written with the Crippled God and the war in the Pantheon in mind.

There's always been some suspicion that perhaps it was all planned. That ST and Cot ascended to serve the empires interests in the war while the Empress led the empires forces against the dangers during the war.

I never quite believed it though.

[Tarr]

As to the magery thing it was probably BEFORE somebody tossed the otarnal sand as I think the claws would have wanted to be in position and hidden before they attacked and to do this they would have needed their sorcery (not that dancer and kell couldn't have used their sorcery to reveal the claws) also it was probably to justify Laseens notion of superiororoty, she waits till he ascesses his warren then throws the otarnal.

I do not think Dancer and Kel were ascendant as when pressed about why they became god's by Mappo he says it was to give them more time to explore the azath.

As to the Sorry bit I don't think the reason for that has been revealed yet and will probably only be revealed when Kel reveals his hand.

[phart]

Ammanas;301184 said:

I've always had this uneasy feeling that there was something strange about the animosity between Laseen and ST. Here's why:

1)In NOK, prior to the showdown, ST's sending tells Tays, "Anyone upstairs is a participant." During the showdown, Tays and co. are downstairs and ST's presence is described as "an overwhelming sense of pressure and a gravid deadly presence too large to grant her notice. A droplet of blood fell from Tays's nose." Sounds similar to what Paran experienced when Rake found him on the plains. The point being, a warren was opened, Rashan probably.

2) After the showdown, Tays goes upstairs and notes reddish dust on the floor. Well, it couldn't have been there when ST was, otherwise his warren wouldn't have worked.

1)At the beginning of GoTM, Lorn basically figures out the Rope's scheme within the first 30 pages. The pair who started the Malazan Empire couldn't be so careless unless ascension is a path to stupidity.

2) If ST/Cot wanted Laseen dead so badly, then it would have been most expedient to send the then seven Hounds after her. Who would have stopped them? Lorn? The Claw? Bah..both would have been dogfood in under ten seconds. Tays--not a chance against all seven. Or why bother with all that--ST appears in Malaz City without any hesitation--the Rope could surely do the same, appear wherever Laseen is and kill her.

3) Some would argue that sending the Hounds after her would have created a war against the Shadow realm or at least focused unwanted attention on it. Maybe but the fact that ST/COT were Kell/Dancer is a really, really poorly kept secret. In any event, the Rope killing her without any Hound caused collateral damage would remove the attention factor.

To make a long post just a bit longer--my conclusion/guess is ST and COT were already ascendants before the showdown--otherwise I don't see how COT in particular could have survived the fall. There was no chance they wouldn't survive the confrontation. My final guess is they knew ascension meant losing the Malazan throne but didn't want Laseen to be Empress. Maybe they thought Tays would take her out and that's why ST proclaims his hatred for Tays at the end of BH.

Well written theory and could be right, problem is it could just be a mistake which happens from time to time in the series, for example rereading BH a couple of weeks ago, and at the start(of the book) Bottle is saying how he is really,really bad at illusions, he is watching someone else preparing for the seige and thinks how bad he is, then 500 pages later he is showing QB how to do it, before the e'seral (sp?) takes over.

These sorts of mistakes creep through in this series so it is hard sometimes to see if it is deliberate placement or an actual error.

[SiriusL]

I've never quite put it all together, but I have some strong suspicions.

1) Many of the Old Guard faked their deaths; you could include ST/Cotillion
2) All the so-called assasination plots never really panned out. It seemed a little more clear at the end of DG that the Empress shouldn't be killed (at least not then).
3) ST couldn't remain as Emporer and become the god of Shadow, too. But you can be he didn't want to give up some control of the mortal Empire.
4) In MoI, it becomes apparent that the Malazan leadership is still supporting the Empress, and believes in her plans.

I still suspect that Laseen and ST were working toward the same ends, and knew it. ST needed a mortal on the Empire's throne so he could use the Empire in concert with his own plans to foil the CG. It is certainly possible that they meant for another member of the Old Guard to take over, not Laseen. But Ammanas (in the original post) is right--they didn't seem to try very hard to get rid of her.

By the end of BH, Laseen had either become corrupted, or had decided to go her own way separate from ST's instructions/plans. At that point, though, she'd lost the Fourteenth, and Onearm's Host, so her power was greatly decreased. I think ST/Cot are willing to let Paran lead the Host, knowing where he stood. They also thought they had a pretty good handle on the Fourteenth, what with QB and Kalam deeply embedded.

As for what's happening now...I don't know. ST is doing something with all the thrones and the Azath, leaving Cotillion to arrange the mortal affairs (QB, Trull, Onrack, Hedge, Mappo->Icarium, etc.). Which of them is working with the Fourteenth, though?

[Mentalist]

for the last question--probably Cotillion
He has connections with QB (whom he doesn't want to kill, unlike ST), and Lostara Yil

For the grand big theory above--It's possible. Could be Laseen's been played like a fiddle, but Kellanved is still angry at her betrayal even though he COUNTED on it.

Let's keep in mind, It's a well-known fact that ST is not always stable....

[Ammanas]

kud13;301796 said:

for the last question--probably Cotillion
He has connections with QB (whom he doesn't want to kill, unlike ST), and Lostara Yil

For the grand big theory above--It's possible. Could be Laseen's been played like a fiddle, but Kellanved is still angry at her betrayal even though he COUNTED on it.

Let's keep in mind, It's a well-known fact that ST is not always stable....

Yeah, there is his lack of consistent stability. If I were a god, I wouldn't give a rat's ass about what QB supposedly did to me when I was mortal, for instance.

[Aptorian]

Actually, we're shown more than once that the gods can be petty and cruel. Hood for example waited 15 years or more just so he could brake WJs leg

[Mentalist]

how very un-Jhagut-like of him...

[Mentalist]

Bah!
Foul spawn of SD, be gone!
to the Mafia threads with you!

[D'rek]

Remember when the CG pulled out those crazy feints within plans within traps within plans within feints? And when parts of it unravelled your were like "OMFG, that's so cool and makes so much sense now!".

Well beating the CG would in turn require feints within plans within falsehoods within lies within lobsters within plans. Only now we're seeing a heck of a lot more characters mixed somewhere into the plans because it's the Shadowthrone/Laseen/K'rul side of things where all the protaganists are. Thus, it's still going to all unravel eventually and we'll all be dumbstruck, followed by hysterical crying for joy and cannibalistic feasting.

[Mentalist]

but are they REALLY all protagonists...
I'm still waiting for a CG PoV to make us all think he's just a victim and veryone else is to blame

[Optimus Prime]

I've felt more pity for the CG than animosity as the series has gotten longer.

I mean can you really blame the guy for being pissed off and maybe thinking that a fresh start is what this reality needs? I mean the world is in constant flux as wars are carried out all the time, some of them hundreds of thousands of years in the fighting, and there are few bright lights in the world.

Back to the original topic, ST and Cot maybe thought that Dassem would take over the Empire....or hoped rather...and Laseen just jumped at the chance.

[Mentalist]

If that was the case, they may have tried to alter their plans after they heard of Y'Ghatan... not like it was a well-kept secret..
Since they didn't I'm sticking with the plan that they WANTED Laseen to take over, but ST's still mad about the "betrayal"due to his general lack of stability

[Mentalist]

She's stil undoubtedly a cold, calculating bitch.
However, she's being portrayed more and more as doing what she does out of the necessity of keeping th eEmpire together--not to mention she's got Rel with his hand around her throat now that he has the Phantom Glove..

[Aptorian]

Nice people don't lead an empire. There's no room for a bleeding heart in the actions of a an ancient empire that relies upon brute force and show of strength to keep control of it's provinces.