[Ammanas]

Aptorian;313877 said:

Two problems with your theory.

Why attempt to kill Dassem if it wasn't a real coup? It was originally Dancer, Kel and Dassem. They'd let him in on it if they made such an arrangement with Surly. NoK clearly shows that Surly was trying to kill him. You can't spin it in any other way. Dassem was not having any part of any game in that tent.

Why try and hide Sorry if the Empress was in on the game? Do you suspect other gods of having spies in the Malazan empires upper ranks? I hardly think so. It's not like Tay had a farming community killed so that he could pretend to be a flagcarrier.

No, but remember Loric had spies in the Malazan ranks during HOC. If he had them, why not other gods? Why do you think the Malazan rulers were so adamant against having immortal patrons? We're also told time and time again about ST's uncanny ability to detect and snuff out cults.

Second, the "attempt" to kill Dassem was so weak a four year old could tear it apart. Here's how ICE wrote it--even though Surly and claws are in Dassem's tent and could have killed him long before Temper and Ferrule show up, they don't. Yes, yes, I know Dassem hurls Temper away when Temper tries to stab him but if all the claws had stabbed simultaneously, well, Dassem doesn't have that many arms. Let's take a count---Jade/Possum/Surly/Topper were all there before Temper and Ferrule arrived. After the fight, three wounded men leave a military encampment and are never found. Ridiculous---they weren't found because nobody bothered to pursue them.

My best guess is Laseen apprised the situation and decided she would attain her goals with or without Dassem being dead. I believe her goals were a military structure without a First Sword. Laseen's ego simply can't tolerate more powerful presences. I also believe based on Lorn's comments to Tool in GOTM that Laseen was sure taking the Malazan throne would give her power over the Imass. With an undead army, who needs Dassem?

[Aptorian]

Ammanas;314528 said:

No, but remember Loric had spies in the Malazan ranks during HOC. If he had them, why not other gods? Why do you think the Malazan rulers were so adamant against having immortal patrons? We're also told time and time again about ST's uncanny ability to detect and snuff out cults.

Second, the "attempt" to kill Dassem was so weak a four year old could tear it apart. Here's how ICE wrote it--even though Surly and claws are in Dassem's tent and could have killed him long before Temper and Ferrule show up, they don't. Yes, yes, I know Dassem hurls Temper away when Temper tries to stab him but if all the claws had stabbed simultaneously, well, Dassem doesn't have that many arms. Let's take a count---Jade/Possum/Surly/Topper were all there before Temper and Ferrule arrived. After the fight, three wounded men leave a military encampment and are never found. Ridiculous---they weren't found because nobody bothered to pursue them.

My best guess is Laseen apprised the situation and decided she would attain her goals with or without Dassem being dead. I believe her goals were a military structure without a First Sword. Laseen's ego simply can't tolerate more powerful presences. I also believe based on Lorn's comments to Tool in GOTM that Laseen was sure taking the Malazan throne would give her power over the Imass. With an undead army, who needs Dassem?

Gods, I hate this discussion. It's clear that those who want it to be a conspiracy are just going to find any "odd" part and use it as an argument.

Ill try again. I've had this discussion before in a different thread. This is my view of what went down and how I would logically spin it.

The attempt on Dassems life in the tent was not their first plan and the way it went down the second time can be chalked down to split decisions.

First attempt Surly and co were relying on the wound to hurt or distract Dassem enough that the Champion could take down the First Sword. They even kept back the remaining Malazan force in the hope that the Sword would just be overwhelmed.

It's right there. I can't see how that incident can be explained away.

Second attempt was a desperate move. Dassem had been brought back to the camp, among the men that loved him. Killing him there was a risky move. There's probably been some discussion among Surly and her lieutenants. Even though he was reported on the brink of death, the men knew he was the Knight of Hood and worshipped him as Dessembrae. They knew he was alive when he entered the camp and his death now could be seen as mysterious and that was dangerous. There's also the evidence that the Healers were missing. Somebody must have given an order telling the healers to stay away from Dassems tent. Possibly they were told that Dassem was already dead.

Was Surly counting on Temper and "other sword" breaking out and coming to Dassems aid? Maybe, perhaps she wanted them all in one place. She knew they were hurt and she was confident in her lieutenants skills. Perhaps they were just detected entering Dassems tent, and knowing that the remaining Sword now knew their Leader wasn't dead, Surly decided to act.

In the tent, they're confident. They think Dassem is incapacitated, killing the two Sword should be easy. When Dassem suddenly wakes, they're rattled and probably shitting bricks. That's why everything goes south for the claws.

Why would she send in her...four? Best assassins to kill Dassem if she wanted them to escape?

[buddhacat]

I agree with Apt's description above. I'll go one further and suggest that Surly was concerned about whether Dassem will pull a Kellanved/Dancer and ascend and so she wanted him kept sick but not dead - similar to what the Ceda wanted to do to Rhulad. I dont think she or the other Claws expected Temper to have figured that out. It was Temper who messed her plans up by stabbing Dassem, resulting in his ascension.

[Ellestra]

Aptorian;314643 said:

Gods, I hate this discussion. It's clear that those who want it to be a conspiracy are just going to find any "odd" part and use it as an argument.

Ill try again. I've had this discussion before in a different thread. This is my view of what went down and how I would logically spin it.

The attempt on Dassems life in the tent was not their first plan and the way it went down the second time can be chalked down to split decisions.

First attempt Surly and co were relying on the wound to hurt or distract Dassem enough that the Champion could take down the First Sword. They even kept back the remaining Malazan force in the hope that the Sword would just be overwhelmed.

It's right there. I can't see how that incident can be explained away.

Second attempt was a desperate move. Dassem had been brought back to the camp, among the men that loved him. Killing him there was a risky move. There's probably been some discussion among Surly and her lieutenants. Even though he was reported on the brink of death, the men knew he was the Knight of Hood and worshipped him as Dessembrae. They knew he was alive when he entered the camp and his death now could be seen as mysterious and that was dangerous. There's also the evidence that the Healers were missing. Somebody must have given an order telling the healers to stay away from Dassems tent. Possibly they were told that Dassem was already dead.

Was Surly counting on Temper and "other sword" breaking out and coming to Dassems aid? Maybe, perhaps she wanted them all in one place. She knew they were hurt and she was confident in her lieutenants skills. Perhaps they were just detected entering Dassems tent, and knowing that the remaining Sword now knew their Leader wasn't dead, Surly decided to act.

In the tent, they're confident. They think Dassem is incapacitated, killing the two Sword should be easy. When Dassem suddenly wakes, they're rattled and probably shitting bricks. That's why everything goes south for the claws.

Why would she send in her...four? Best assassins to kill Dassem if she wanted them to escape?

I just think it's all very suspicious.

The assassination attempt, that allows Dassem to disappear, just when he wanted to quit anyway.
Somebody like him couldn't have just said 'I want to quit' and walked away. To many people would want something from him, want to follow him, want to convince him to take the throne.
Much better to die for everyone. Be killed in the fight for power.

Surly pretending that he died even though she knows perfectly well he didn't. She doesn't pursue him or his comrades. Doesn't do anything. That's weird. Someone like her wanting to assure her rule and power shouldn't leave such a powerful man with strong following alive. What if he comes back and starts an uprising? She doesn't seem concerned with that. Like that's not something she should worry about.

It all seems very fake to me.

[Ammanas]

Aptorian;314643 said:

Gods, I hate this discussion. It's clear that those who want it to be a conspiracy are just going to find any "odd" part and use it as an argument.

Ill try again. I've had this discussion before in a different thread. This is my view of what went down and how I would logically spin it.

The attempt on Dassems life in the tent was not their first plan and the way it went down the second time can be chalked down to split decisions.

First attempt Surly and co were relying on the wound to hurt or distract Dassem enough that the Champion could take down the First Sword. They even kept back the remaining Malazan force in the hope that the Sword would just be overwhelmed.

It's right there. I can't see how that incident can be explained away.

Second attempt was a desperate move. Dassem had been brought back to the camp, among the men that loved him. Killing him there was a risky move. There's probably been some discussion among Surly and her lieutenants. Even though he was reported on the brink of death, the men knew he was the Knight of Hood and worshipped him as Dessembrae. They knew he was alive when he entered the camp and his death now could be seen as mysterious and that was dangerous. There's also the evidence that the Healers were missing. Somebody must have given an order telling the healers to stay away from Dassems tent. Possibly they were told that Dassem was already dead.

Was Surly counting on Temper and "other sword" breaking out and coming to Dassems aid? Maybe, perhaps she wanted them all in one place. She knew they were hurt and she was confident in her lieutenants skills. Perhaps they were just detected entering Dassems tent, and knowing that the remaining Sword now knew their Leader wasn't dead, Surly decided to act.

In the tent, they're confident. They think Dassem is incapacitated, killing the two Sword should be easy. When Dassem suddenly wakes, they're rattled and probably shitting bricks. That's why everything goes south for the claws.

Why would she send in her...four? Best assassins to kill Dassem if she wanted them to escape?

So when Possum screams "stop him" at Temper's attempt to stab Dassem, you're saying he knew Dassem would wake, throw Temper aside and kill Claws? Or is killing a wounded and seemingly unconscious Dassem some Claw only honor?

[Veilside]

Ammanas;315242 said:

So when Possum screams "stop him" at Temper's attempt to stab Dassem, you're saying he knew Dassem would wake, throw Temper aside and kill Claws? Or is killing a wounded and seemingly unconscious Dassem some Claw only honor?

Well, Temper thought it'd work, so why wouldn't Possum think so too?

[Wordmerchant]

I am leaning strongly toward the opinion that the assassinations by Surly/Laseen were in fact planned in cahoots with Kel and Dancer. These are three people who worked together in Malaz in the bar owned by Kel and Dancer. If the long term goal is to align against the later arriving CG, this idea makes all the seeming failure and bumbling logical. We now have 2 first rate armies, and numerous ascendants, gods, and heroic types aligned and positioned where they can be most effective against the forces of the CG.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.