[lasombra]

R the Long Tails capable of flying the skykeeps?Them being all primalish and stuff? Controlin nobs with knives for hands dont fit

[Aptorian]

How should we know? Maybe.

The Matrons were said to be able to breed their children for specific purposes. Perhaps other KCCM existed like the female in RG, with actual hands with opposable thumbs. Then again, we don't know how the Andii piloted Moonsspawn. Perhaps the keeps fly by focusing your thoughts or by making a chant.

I don't think you should underestimate the longtails compared to the shorttails. The shorttail Karsa killed seemed no more "intelligent" or "civilized" than the Kellhunters we've met.

[Optimus Prime]

Agreed. All the Kell Hunter's we've seen have been simply that...Hunters. They moved and acted on instinct and the need to kill.

Yet the Nahruk have been equally as brutal and "primal". The real question is who led the Nahruk after they broke the chains of the Matrons.

As for piloting the skykeeps....the Andii may have moved magic instead of the Nahruk's technology.

[D'rek]

It is generally believed that the skykeeps are one of the technologies belonging solely to the Nah'ruk, that the Che'malle could not build these things. However, the Nah'ruk did not rise in rebellion everywhere. In places where the Nah'ruk did not rebel, the Che'malle would certainly have been able to use the skykeeps with them.

Additionally:
-The K'Chain fought in the MT prologue had skykeeps, and they were mostly if not all Che'malle. It may have been Nah'ruk in the keeps, however.
-Cotillion says the keeps in the imperial warren in tBH are full of Che'malle, not Nah'ruk.

[Venerus]

A said:

It is generally believed that the skykeeps are one of the technologies belonging solely to the Nah'ruk, that the Che'malle could not build these things. However, the Nah'ruk did not rise in rebellion everywhere. In places where the Nah'ruk did not rebel, the Che'malle would certainly have been able to use the skykeeps with them.

Additionally:
-The K'Chain fought in the MT prologue had skykeeps, and they were mostly if not all Che'malle. It may have been Nah'ruk in the keeps, however.
-Cotillion says the keeps in the imperial warren in tBH are full of Che'malle, not Nah'ruk.

I was thinking of the same tBH quote from Cot, although to be fair, he doesn't say if they're piloting it.

Lasombre, it might help you to glance at the scene w/Icarium and Mappo as they explore the Skykeep Ganath froze, since it describes the chairs that were used by the operators. I don't remember if there's mention of any special stuff for longer tails or not. Shrug?

[chthonian]

yeah the corpse in the escape-pod thingy that icarium investigates in the "dead ice" has a dead KCCM in the chair, but it has a "stubby tail", making it a nah'ruk... why do you ask out of curiousity? stumbled across some sort of awesome arcane knowledge? ;P

[Ain't_It_Just_]

That reminds me: in RG, when Silchas and co. are passing through the ice mountains (or something, don't remember when) they come across K"Chain. And he says, "Fouled K'ell, Naw'rhuk, A'dat, Matron." What are the A'dat? Maybe they are the hypothetical opposable-thumbed ones.

[lasombra]

Just wanted to see the toughts of the other peeps on the forum

[D'rek]

Ain said:

That reminds me: in RG, when Silchas and co. are passing through the ice mountains (or something, don't remember when) they come across K"Chain. And he says, "Fouled K'ell, Naw'rhuk, A'dat, Matron." What are the A'dat? Maybe they are the hypothetical opposable-thumbed ones.

can you give us a chapter or page reference so we can examine it in full context? great find though!

[Mentalist]

hmm
I think it should be remembered that the Kell hunters were supposedly a minority among KCCM--the warriors, who were comparatively few b/c thwy were so damn powerful. the reason that only kell hunters have been shown to us so far (mostly), is because whenever we see KCCM, they're fighting. We are yet to get a description of a peace-time KCCM city/hive/etc.
In light of that, I'd advise not to jump to conclusions.

[Aptorian]

Ain said:

That reminds me: in RG, when Silchas and co. are passing through the ice mountains (or something, don't remember when) they come across K"Chain. And he says, "Fouled K'ell, Naw'rhuk, A'dat, Matron." What are the A'dat? Maybe they are the hypothetical opposable-thumbed ones.

Like A'kor asks, do you have a page reference for that? Perhaps the A'dat are the lizard mice... ohh, intimidating.

By the way people are making a common mistake in this thread. Both the longtails and shorttails are called K'Chain Che'Malle. The shorttails name is just longer, K'Chain Che'Malle Nahruk, why is anyones guess.

We don't know who was inside the skykeeps in the MT prologue. Perhaps the KCCM factions desperation was so great that they stood together one last time or perhaps it really was just longtails in the skykeeps.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian;299298 said:

Like A'kor asks, do you have a page reference for that? Perhaps the A'dat are the lizard mice... ohh, intimidating.

By the way people are making a common mistake in this thread. Both the longtails and shorttails are called K'Chain Che'Malle. The shorttails name is just longer, K'Chain Che'Malle Nahruk, why is anyones guess.

We don't know who was inside the skykeeps in the MT prologue. Perhaps the KCCM factions desperation was so great that they stood together one last time or perhaps it really was just longtails in the skykeeps.

Found it! Page 92, RG:

Almost as ridiculous as this mosaic floor with its glowing armies. Images of lizard warriors locked in war, long-tails against short-tails, with the long-tails doing the most dying, as far as he could tell. The bizarre slaughter beneath their feet spilled out into the adjoining rooms, each one, it seemed, devoted to the heroic death of some champion- Fouled K'ell, Naw'rhuk A'dat and Matrons....

Damn, looks like my imagination put an extra comma in there...

[Aptorian]

ok, so there's no A'dat. Still interesting the name "Naw'rhuk A'dat"... does that mean that Nahruk is a bastardization of a much longer KCCM name.

[Tarr]

What I'm interested in is these "Champions" were any of them ascendants? were they the leaders of the nahruk? and the kell hunters are mentioned as a faction on their own, did they also rebel? after all we see and hear of no kell hunters in the MT prolouge and if so did they have "champions".

They Kell hunters are refered to as the first born, I took that to mean as first born K'chain Chemelle, but what if they are a race on their own? and were before the ordinary K'chain like the Nahruk were? Maybe the Nahruk and Kell were used to exterminate whatever predated the K'chain and were then "discontinued" as they were no longer needed?

*Crazy theory machine runs out of pepsi goes to get more*

[Aptorian]

Kallor claims that the Kell Hunters were made specifically by the Matrons.

As for the Champions, Red Mask was a champion of the KCCM, and he wasn't ascended.

[Tarr]

Yes and so were the Nahruk your point being? I wasn't asking where they came from!

Red Mask was apparently their first sword but other than toc we have no evidence of that and the K'chain later killed him. I don't think they would do that to a champion, He was probably being used by the K'chain as a distraction as for what I have no idea!

[Aptorian]

Tarr;299344 said:

Yes and so were the Nahruk your point being? I wasn't asking where they came from!

Uhm, you sort of were:

Quote

They Kell hunters are refered to as the first born, I took that to mean as first born K'chain Chemelle, but what if they are a race on their own? and were before the ordinary K'chain like the Nahruk were?

The difference between the Kell Hunters and the Nahruk being that we hear that the shorttails existed before the longtails, and that we hear that Kell hunters are something a Matron breeds.

Matrons do not, as far as we know, breed Nahruk, they engineered them.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

PErhaps A'dat refers to the Nah'ruk that stayed loyal/rebelled specifically?

As for who led the Nah'ruk, it makes sense they had some sort of chief representative, as we know from RG they parleyed with Silchas, and it would be impractical not to have one Narhuk or a small council representing them.

Which makes you wonder if this leader will play any part in the novels- at least with retrospective views of the Tiste/KC wars.

[Tarr]

@apt - The nahruk were not created they are living cretures therefore they at some point have to have a mother-a matron-but that was not what I was asking.

What I was asking is if they are a seperate race not where they come from, as they both come from the matrons, the matrons create different species for different tasks.

The Nahruk were created to build and fly the citadel while the Kell hunters were the warriors created to kill the matrons enemies. There may actually be other races we have not heard about for other jobs.

When the Nahruk rebelled I think that although many had joined the other faction the matrons just created some more to build and fly their citadels in the fight against the other Nahruk and started mass producing Kell.

But did some/or all of the Kell also rebel against the Matrons?

[Aptorian]

I think we're miss understanding each other.

The Nahruk that exist now, if I am to understand Kallors account correctly, are not the original Nahruk. My understanding is that they died out. The KCCM then recreated them later, to serve some purpose we don't know... that's when the war between them started.

Perhaps the Nahruk were born by a matron, perhaps they were laid as eggs by a dragon, who knows... but the current ones weren't born by the Elder Times Matrons. Or maybe they were, we don't have that much info on how the Matrons reawakened the Nahruk.